Antes?

Fri Jul 14 09:54:49 UTC 2006

Zdravstvuj Vladimir,

  Yes, maybe i was little bit too hotblooded in adjudging to Bus of Slovo  his "slavic origin", but anyway, his "gothic" roots are also not so  clear...

  I thing that there are good reasons to take this two persons [Jordanes'  Boz and Slovo's Bus] as one person -  of course only on the  speculative base, even though still scientific as I would like believe  :) 

  Jordanes writes about "tragedy" of Boz, the leader of Antes, defeated  by Goths [Vinitharius as far as I remember correct] - crucifiction of  him and also some tens of his nobles.
  In Slovo, there is mentioned Bus, also in tragic elegiac kontext  [tragedy of defeated russian army as well as vengeance of Sharokan],  and also together with Goths - the only time in Slovo - where Goths ar  considered enemies of russians [zvonia russkim zolotom].
  So there are two sources, where is  
  1) king Bus/Boz, 
  2) Goths  
  3) tragic events conected with Goths and Bus/Boz

  What do you thing about this point of wiew?
åÇÏÒÏ× ÷ÌÁÄÉÍÉÒ <vegorov at ipiran.ru> wrote:  *********

Hi Michal!

You  are a little bit wrong. Boz is mentioned by Jordanes, while _Slovo o  polku Igoreve_ recalls Bus, more exactly _the Bus' time_ praised  (attention!) by _Gothic beautiful maidens_ (ÇÏÔØÓËÙÑ ËÒÁÓÎÙÑ ÄÅ×Ù /  ×ßÓÐÅÛÁ ÎÁ ÂÒÅÚÅ ÓÉÎÅÍÕ ÍÏÒÀ: / Ú×ÏÎÑ ÒÕÓËÙÍÅ ÚÌÁÔÏÍß; / ÐÏÀÔß ×ÒÅÍÑ  âÕÓÏ×Ï, / ÌÅÌÅÀÔß ÍÅÓÔØ ûÁÒÏËÁÎÀ). Thus, Bus is connected rather with  the Goths than some Antes, which are absolutely unknown to the author  of _Slovo_.

However, there is a very interesting though  officially not accepted hypothesis by Olzhas Suleimenov (a Kazakh poet  having investigated _Slovo_ from the viewpoint of possible Turkish  borrowings) that the _Gothic beautiful maidens_ are a simple  misunderstanding. The adduced quotation is preceded by the words (ÕÖÅ  ×ÒßÖÅÓÑ ÄÉ×Ø ÎÁ ÚÅÍÌÀ. / óÅ ÂÏ ÇÏÔØÓËÙÑ ËÒÁÓÎÙÑ ÄÅ×Ù-). Suleimenov  divides the text (originally represented as a continuous unbroken  massive!) another way, and the _Gothic beautiful maidens_ turn into- a  later copyist's remark _This is a forefather's God_ (óÅ ÂÏÇ ÏÔØÓËÙÊ)  regarding _div_ (ÄÉ×Ø).

Furthermore. The discussed _div_ as a  deity has undoubtedly the Iranian origin. The most convincing etymology  for Boz is Slavic _Bog_ "God", with the consonant interchange _Boz-_,  _Bozh-_. However, _Bog_ is also considered as an Iranian borrowing into  Slavic.

You are absolutely right that Russian historians and  archaeologists endeavor to treat the Antes as a Slavic (Protoslavic)  tribe allowing however some Alanian component or substate.

BTW,  there is still no answer to the old question: Whether _the Antes_ was a  their self-denomination or an appellation given them by Greek authors.

Vladimir

-----Original Message-----
From: gothic-l at yahoogroups.com [mailto:gothic-l at yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Michal Cigan
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 1:39 PM
To: gothic-l at yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Re: Antes?

Zdravim,

As  I know, Antes is etonymum of iranian origin, but who knows...(germanic  etymology introduced here is quite interesting) They probably was a  gens consisting of iranian and slavic element - probably iranian, later  slavised nobility and slavic substart of "commons". One of their  leaders called Boz is mentioned also in The Lay of The Warhost of Igor  (Slovo o polku Igorevem - 12. ct.) - whit slavic "etnicity". They where  finally eliminated probably by Avars, when they penetrated into  carpathian basin - Antes dwelled in those times probably on the eastern  roots of the eastern (romanian) part of Carpathian mountains. Anyway,  Antes are generaly considered as one of the early mediaval slavic  gentes - at least by slavic archeology and history.

Michal
ualarauans < ualarauans at yahoo.  com> wrote: Hails, Mixael!

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroup  s.com, Michael Erwin  wrote:
>
> I'm not convinced 'Antes' is an ethnonym. The name comes from 
> Jordanes, after all.
> 
> If the root is Gothic, any Ans- Ant- or Anth- could yield 'Antes' 
in 
> transliteration.
> 
> If the root is not Gothic, some other forms might also do so.
> 
> (Ni quotha inuh Gutrazda ei meljo in razdai mainon)
>

At first I too had doubts if it were not another Gothic word left 
untranslated in Getica, but note that, besides Jordanes, Antes are 
mentioned by Procopius of Caesarea (hYPER TWN POLEMWN LOGOI, V.27.2 
et passim, especially a longer fragment about this tribe VII.14.22-
30 - he has the name as ANTAI), Menander (Fr. 6 where the ANTAI are 
reported to get destroyed by Avares), Mauricius (STRATHGIKON, XI.3, 
4: advice how to wage war against the ANTAI, just in case, with a 
very detailed description of the probable adversaries) and others 
more. Very difficult to believe all the authors borrowed it from 
Jordanes. But can we be quite sure that it was just this ethnonym 
which produced the known Germanic forms: OE _ent_ "giant", OHG 
_enz_ "idem" (after G. Koebler). And is the adjective OS 
_entisc_ "huge", OLFr, OHG _entisk _ "old" formed from the same 
stem? Koebler explains them in different ways (OS < PG 
*antjaz "giant", OLFr, OHG < PG *andjaz "end", dependent on meaning 
I guess). If so, why OLFr not *endisk? If nevertheless it's from 
*antjaz too - why OHG not *enzisk? Maybe it's a Low-to-High German 
loan, or vice versa?
Whatever it be, for our ends it would be interesting to know if the 
semantics of the word mutated from ethnonym to "giant" (a very well-
spread change) already in Gothic, so that this word (pl. 
*Antjos:*Anteis) could be reconstructed in the latter meaning. 
Jordanes describes them as rather serious opponents of the Gothic 
war power (Get. 247: ...dum adgreditur prima congressione superatus, 
deinde etc...).
The name itself is usually thought to be Iranian derived from the 
same IE base ant- "limit", "end", which produced PG *andjaz, so 
Antes could have meant roughly the same as Marcomanni or nowaday's 
Ukrainians.

Ualarauans

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