Antes?
Michal Cigan
michalcigan at YAHOO.COM
Mon Jul 17 14:43:34 UTC 2006
Hi Vladimir
Hi Michal!
I do not see still any real reasons to unite Jordannes' Boz with hypothetical Slovo's Bus and cannot agree with your conclusions.
In the two sources under consideration:
1) there is king Boz, but there is not king Bus (strictly speaking there is not Bus himself); when tere are words about "times of Bus", than I dont thing, that the Bus could be something smaller, than chiftain, leader, or "king", or simply some kind of hero - to use term king is of course anachronism in that context
2) of course, the Goths are present by Jordanes, but they are not within "Slovo" except for the questionable "Gothic maidens", which may appear a confusion and mishmash;
that idea You typed abow - about uncorrect dividing of words - is far more speculative, than any attempt to set any relation between Bus and Boz - at least in my opinion
3) I do not see any tragic events connected with the Goths, as the Jordanes' Goths won their enemies, and the Gothic beautiful maidens (even if those are not a confusion) praised (hymned) the Bus' time with no hint at some grief.
I ment not tragic event of Goths, but tragic event of Buz/Boz, which have eventualy something to do with Goths - this makes difference - in Jordanes in explicit, in Slovo in inplicit way...
Sorry,
Its OK...
Vladimir
M.
?????? ???????? <vegorov at ipiran.ru> wrote: ******************<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
Hi Michal!
I do not see still any real reasons to unite Jordannes' Boz with hypothetical Slovo's Bus and cannot agree with your conclusions.
In the two sources under consideration:
1) there is king Boz, but there is not king Bus (strictly speaking there is not Bus himself);
2) of course, the Goths are present by Jordanes, but they are not within "Slovo" except for the questionable "Gothic maidens", which may appear a confusion and mishmash;
3) I do not see any tragic events connected with the Goths, as the Jordanes' Goths won their enemies, and the Gothic beautiful maidens (even if those are not a confusion) praised (hymned) the Bus' time with no hint at some grief.
Sorry,
Vladimir
-----Original Message-----
From: gothic-l at yahoogroups.com [mailto:gothic-l at yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Michal Cigan
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 1:55 PM
To: gothic-l at yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [gothic-l] Re: Antes?
Zdravstvuj Vladimir,
Yes, maybe i was little bit too hotblooded in adjudging to Bus of Slovo his "slavic origin", but anyway, his "gothic" roots are also not so clear...
I thing that there are good reasons to take this two persons [Jordanes' Boz and Slovo's Bus] as one person - of course only on the speculative base, even though still scientific as I would like believe :)
Jordanes writes about "tragedy" of Boz, the leader of Antes, defeated by Goths [Vinitharius as far as I remember correct] - crucifiction of him and also some tens of his nobles.
In Slovo, there is mentioned Bus, also in tragic elegiac kontext [tragedy of defeated russian army as well as vengeance of Sharokan], and also together with Goths - the only time in Slovo - where Goths ar considered enemies of russians [zvonia russkim zolotom].
So there are two sources, where is
1) king Bus/Boz,
2) Goths
3) tragic events conected with Goths and Bus/Boz
What do you thing about this point of wiew?
������ �������� < vegorov at ipiran. <mailto:vegorov%40ipiran.ru> ru> wrote: *********
Hi Michal!
You are a little bit wrong. Boz is mentioned by Jordanes, while _Slovo o polku Igoreve_ recalls Bus, more exactly _the Bus' time_ praised (attention!) by _Gothic beautiful maidens_ (�������� ������� ���� / ������� �� ����� ������ ����: / ����� ������� �������; / ����� ����� ������, / ������� ����� ��������). Thus, Bus is connected rather with the Goths than some Antes, which are absolutely unknown to the author of _Slovo_.
However, there is a very interesting though officially not accepted hypothesis by Olzhas Suleimenov (a Kazakh poet having investigated _Slovo_ from the viewpoint of possible Turkish borrowings) that the _Gothic beautiful maidens_ are a simple misunderstanding. The adduced quotation is preceded by the words (��� ������� ���� �� �����. / �� �� �������� ������� ����-). Suleimenov divides the text (originally represented as a continuous unbroken massive!) another way, and the _Gothic beautiful maidens_ turn into- a later copyist's remark _This is a forefather's God_ (�� ��� �������) regarding _div_ (����).
Furthermore. The discussed _div_ as a deity has undoubtedly the Iranian origin. The most convincing etymology for Boz is Slavic _Bog_ "God", with the consonant interchange _Boz-_, _Bozh-_. However, _Bog_ is also considered as an Iranian borrowing into Slavic.
You are absolutely right that Russian historians and archaeologists endeavor to treat the Antes as a Slavic (Protoslavic) tribe allowing however some Alanian component or substate.
BTW, there is still no answer to the old question: Whether _the Antes_ was a their self-denomination or an appellation given them by Greek authors.
Vladimir
-----Original Message-----
From: gothic-l at yahoogroup <mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com> s.com [mailto: gothic-l at yahoogroup <mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com> s.com]On Behalf Of Michal Cigan
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 1:39 PM
To: gothic-l at yahoogroup <mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com> s..com
Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Re: Antes?
Zdravim,
As I know, Antes is etonymum of iranian origin, but who knows...(germanic etymology introduced here is quite interesting) They probably was a gens consisting of iranian and slavic element - probably iranian, later slavised nobility and slavic substart of "commons". One of their leaders called Boz is mentioned also in The Lay of The Warhost of Igor (Slovo o polku Igorevem - 12. ct.) - whit slavic "etnicity". They where finally eliminated probably by Avars, when they penetrated into carpathian basin - Antes dwelled in those times probably on the eastern roots of the eastern (romanian) part of Carpathian mountains. Anyway, Antes are generaly considered as one of the early mediaval slavic gentes - at least by slavic archeology and history.
Michal
ualarauans < ualarauans at yahoo. com> wrote: Hails, Mixael!
--- In gothic-l at yahoogroup s.com, Michael Erwin wrote:
>
> I'm not convinced 'Antes' is an ethnonym. The name comes from
> Jordanes, after all.
>
> If the root is Gothic, any Ans- Ant- or Anth- could yield 'Antes'
in
> transliteration.
>
> If the root is not Gothic, some other forms might also do so.
>
> (Ni quotha inuh Gutrazda ei meljo in razdai mainon)
>
At first I too had doubts if it were not another Gothic word left
untranslated in Getica, but note that, besides Jordanes, Antes are
mentioned by Procopius of Caesarea (hYPER TWN POLEMWN LOGOI, V.27.2
et passim, especially a longer fragment about this tribe VII.14.22-
30 - he has the name as ANTAI), Menander (Fr. 6 where the ANTAI are
reported to get destroyed by Avares), Mauricius (STRATHGIKON, XI.3,
4: advice how to wage war against the ANTAI, just in case, with a
very detailed description of the probable adversaries) and others
more. Very difficult to believe all the authors borrowed it from
Jordanes. But can we be quite sure that it was just this ethnonym
which produced the known Germanic forms: OE _ent_ "giant", OHG
_enz_ "idem" (after G. Koebler). And is the adjective OS
_entisc_ "huge", OLFr, OHG _entisk _ "old" formed from the same
stem? Koebler explains them in different ways (OS < PG
*antjaz "giant", OLFr, OHG < PG *andjaz "end", dependent on meaning
I guess). If so, why OLFr not *endisk? If nevertheless it's from
*antjaz too - why OHG not *enzisk? Maybe it's a Low-to-High German
loan, or vice versa?
Whatever it be, for our ends it would be interesting to know if the
semantics of the word mutated from ethnonym to "giant" (a very well-
spread change) already in Gothic, so that this word (pl.
*Antjos:*Anteis) could be reconstructed in the latter meaning.
Jordanes describes them as rather serious opponents of the Gothic
war power (Get. 247: ...dum adgreditur prima congressione superatus,
deinde etc...).
The name itself is usually thought to be Iranian derived from the
same IE base ant- "limit", "end", which produced PG *andjaz, so
Antes could have meant roughly the same as Marcomanni or nowaday's
Ukrainians.
Ualarauans
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