Using DNA to find Goths

[Arthur Jones]

Hails gasinthans --
   
  Not being a geneticist (alas!), I am not in position to judge the feasibility of isolating Gothic DNA that would have, in probability, shared unique features or patterns of DNA with their (possibly) more immediate descendants, viz., residents with long pedigrees from Gotland. Nor am I in the business of trying to calculate how much intermingling of double helix materials might have occurred to a migrating, warfaring nation of shared ethos and interests absorbing a wide variety of other migrating peoples.
   
  But, just as the Gothic language = bloodline is demonstrably false as a major premise, the other ones you mentioned --- Alans, Slavs, Huns, Thracians, Dacians, Sarmatians, Rhaetians, Invaders-from-outer-spacians: probably were their own mixtures as well. And, on the other hand, the aristrocacies of those nations most frequently kept their own bloodlines accountable, because that was a major part of their mystique and a selling point for unification of their followers.
   
  Imagine Queen Elisabeth II of Great Britain demonstrating with pride her part Zulu ancestry! Wouldn't go down well with the common folk, eh?
   
  And that misses the point entirely: Isolating and tracing single or double strands of unique DNA patterns is a long, lonely, complex work.
   
  But it works: DNA of the Uyghur Mummies, Western Europeans who lived in the Northwestern Chinese deserts between 1200 bc and their gradual breakup in the first centuries of our era, were rather obviously similar to Northern Europeans: tall, blond or reddish hair, fair skin, long heads, even wearing plaid trousers. They, too, were mixtures, as are we all. But we think they spoke an early forerunner of Tocharian, along the time that the Tocharian series broke apart from the other pre-Northern European tongues, including Celtic, Germanic, and even Latinic.
   
  So the venture is not in vain: The science is now up to the task, and the procedures are becoming quite formalized. There will indeed be difficulties. But we should bless the fact that somebody is finally willing to tackle the project.
   
  But I believe that, as opposed to taking DNA samples in river towns and port cities, where people mix over time just as the waters running past the settlements, it might be more bountiful a harvest if one were also to take samples from isolated mountain villages where similarities of ethnic and linguistic traits have been observed. But, as I say, I am not a geneticist and cannot judge.
   
  With collegial greetings,
   
   
  Arthur
   
  arthur.jones at yahoo.com
   
  

OSCAR HERRERA <duke.co at sbcglobal.net> wrote: 
          all that sounds like were talking about people today.....i hardly think the goths were goths if they were mixing with other groups....maybe a few mixed with others......one thing about the groups of those days, particularly the germanic and celtic groups of those times was their ability to self polarize themselves.......oscar

faltin2001 <d.faltin at hispeed.ch> wrote: 

Hi Sturla,

could you explain this project in a bit more detail please?

I think one big problem that you need to bear in mind is that Goths 
are not a biological grouping, but a political grouping. We know, for 
example, that the Visigoths who arrived in Gaul and Spain included 
many Roman provincials, runaway slaves and disgruntled miners. 

If you look back at Gothic individuals about whom we know a little 
bit about their family background it is striking that most of them 
had mixed ethnic backgrounds. Jordanes was apprently partly of Alanic 
origin, Theoderic´s mother seems to have been a Roman woman. For a 
migrant group like the Goths this was probably a typical feature. 
When the Goths appeared first in the wars agains Philip I Arabs, they 
seemed to have been allies of the Carpi, a people that then 
disappeared from the records. The Carpi, an Illyrian or Thrakian 
people were like absorbed into the Goths and there are probably more 
small non-Germanic groups that were absorbed by the Goths. 

In fact, historians believe if the Goths hadn't had the ability and 
the attraction to absorbe other ethnic and political groups they 
would have vanished long before the 5th century. 

In this sense, I would be interested to know what exactly Gothic DNA 
should be like? Even if you extracted DNA from a skeleton that was 
buried with Gothic or East Germanic grave goods, how can you know 
what political identity this person once had. It would be fantastic 
if what you propose is possible, but so far I have my doubts.

Cheers
Dirk

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "sturlus" <sellingvaag at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> Hi,
> this is my first post here, but I've been following this forum for 
quite
> some time now.
> 
> I have started Explico (www.explicofund.org 
<http://www.explicofund.org>
> , funded by Norwegian investors) which is a foundation using DNA to
> trace Human migrations, similar to National Geographics The 
Genographic
> Project <https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/> and to 
the
> Bradshaw foundations Journey of Mankind
> <http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/journey/> .
> 
> We have started in the Migration period and I am particularly 
interested
> in finding traces from Goths in the living populations of today, at
> least we'll try to find out if there is any or not. We'll be going 
to
> Sevastapol, travel along the coast to Mariupol and the to Rostov on 
Don,
> collecting DNA and searching in particular among the Greek cultural
> organisations (for instance in Mariupol).
> 
> I am in need of:
> 
> * Tips on where to collect DNA! (Places/Histories) * Local
> contacts along our route: universities, students, possible useful
> assistants, politicians (local authorities), Genealogy 
organisations,
> Greek cultural organisations and any others whom could help us. *
> Anything else that might aid us! * Other theories and peoples we
> could / should look for in Russia/Ukraine aroung the Black Sea or 
for
> that matter other places in Europe/Central Asia, using DNA.
> 
> 
> For example, Ualarauans post on Gothic burials in Upper Don
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/message/8942> is 
interesting,
> in Ksizovo, Lipetsk region. The possibilities of finding remnants 
today
> of Goths on Don might seem slim. However perhaps there exists some
> communities along the Don, where descendants from Greeks or Goths 
traces
> can be found.
> 
> This year we will also search in Northern Spain for Visigoths and 
in the
> Atlas mountains of North Africa among the Berber tribes for possible
> Vandal populations. We will also take DNA from Scandinavians and 
other
> peoples living in the Baltic area. Next year we will expand our
> expeditions, but I see now that the Black Sea area will be of 
special
> interest to us.
> 
> Thanks for any comment!
> Also send me an email: sturlae at ... <mailto:sturlae at ...> , if
> anything.
> 
> 
> Sturla Ellingvåg
> Oslo, Norway
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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