Using DNA to find Goths

[Michal Cigan]

Hi,
I give up to follow all the arguments about this topic, but anyway - I thing this "gothic DNA project" is totally wrong idea.
I only wonder, that someone in 21. century can come with such thing, maybe in 19. century, but today?

Why?

1) today we know, that gentes (and Goths especially) of those times where more political, then biological entities (nothing like American Indian tribes) - even the cores of gentes, groups of warriors, where often a) "multietnical", or b) "etnicaly" totally different from another members of gens

2) even the relationship of an individual to such a political (!!!once again, not biological!!!) unit basicly was constructed cultural (not biological). This applies
for member of gentes, their nobles as well as royal dynasties: especially genealogical descends of "kings" was oraly transmised, and so in is no historical record, but a mixture of history and fiction - in most cases this royal lines were created ad hoc and ex post, when some leader wanted to legitimise his right to rule (or You want to find out the DNA of Odin? - who is in many of germanic royal lines) - so dream about line of royal blood is only a dream, not reality. Greetings to all fans of Davinci Code...
For example, when you pick up mediaval grave  of "avarian warrior" - You only now, that that man lived in the times,  when Avars  created certain  warfare  and cultural style of  carpathian basin, but You  cannot tell anything about his "etnicity" - language, cultural background -  he could be  German, Slav, "real" Avar, as well as byzantinian  outlaw, who joined Avars

3) (Indo)european populations where probably geneticaly mixed from very early times, theories about one fenotyp for one tribe are dead with Hitler, at leas I hope so...

4) Note about all the later migrations, movements, wars, disasters in Europe after Goths

So, good luck in searching for "gothic DNA"...

P. S. Sorry for mistakes, i was really in a hurry...

Francisc Czobor <fericzobor at yahoo.com> wrote:                                  Dirk is right, since the Goths have absorbed and assimilated many 
 people of other origins, such a DNA research could be misleading.
 Beside Jordanes and Theoderic, another famous example is bishop 
 Wulfila: although he was born among  the Visigoths, both his parents 
 were Cappadocian Greeks, so his DNA would be linked to that of the 
 Hellenized populations of Asia Minor, not to that of the North-
 Europeans...
 
 Francisc
 
 --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <d.faltin at ...> wrote:
 >
 > 
 > 
 > Hi Sturla,
 > 
 > could you explain this project in a bit more detail please?
 > 
 > I think one big problem that you need to bear in mind is that Goths 
 > are not a biological grouping, but a political grouping. We know, 
 for 
 > example, that the Visigoths who arrived in Gaul and Spain included 
 > many Roman provincials, runaway slaves and disgruntled miners. 
 > 
 > If you look back at Gothic individuals about whom we know a little 
 > bit about their family background it is striking that most of them 
 > had mixed ethnic backgrounds. Jordanes was apprently partly of 
 Alanic 
 > origin, Theoderic�s mother seems to have been a Roman woman. For a 
 > migrant group like the Goths this was probably a typical feature. 
 > When the Goths appeared first in the wars agains Philip I Arabs, 
 they 
 > seemed to have been allies of the Carpi, a people that then 
 > disappeared from the records. The Carpi, an Illyrian or Thrakian 
 > people were like absorbed into the Goths and there are probably 
 more 
 > small non-Germanic groups that were absorbed by the Goths. 
 > 
 > In fact, historians believe if the Goths hadn't had the ability and 
 > the attraction to absorbe other ethnic and political groups they 
 > would have vanished long before the 5th century. 
 > 
 > In this sense, I would be interested to know what exactly Gothic 
 DNA 
 > should be like? Even if you extracted DNA from a skeleton that was 
 > buried with Gothic or East Germanic grave goods, how can you know 
 > what political identity this person once had. It would be fantastic 
 > if what you propose is possible, but so far I have my doubts.
 > 
 > Cheers
 > Dirk
 > 
 > 
 
 
     
                       

 __________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> 
Check out the new improvements in Yahoo! Groups email.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/7EuRwD/fOaOAA/yQLSAA/wWMplB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~-> 

You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>. 
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    gothic-l-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/