Name of the Goths

[faltin2001]

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "akoddsson" <konrad_oddsson at ...> 
wrote:
>
> Hails Dirk!
> 
> --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <d.faltin@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > you have of course all heard the interpretation of the name of 
the 
> Goths (Gutane) derived from a word meaning 'to pour/flow' with the 
> sense of 'those who have been created by the outpouring of semen by 
> a god'.
> 
> Yes, from PGmc. *geutan, 'to pour'. But this says nothing about 
what 
> is pouring/being poured. 
> 
> > I wonder if this is not a little bit far fetched.
> 
> The 'semen'-part could well be. 
> 
> > Consider the German place name Göttingen (a big and old town in 
> Lower Saxony). It is first mentioned with the name Gutinge in AD 
953 
> and was also called Gotinge in medieval sources. The interpretation 
> of the name is based on an Old Saxon word 'guta' 
> meaning 'stream/flow of water'. The modern Eastfalian (the dialect 
> of the Göttingen area) is is 'Gôtë' and these words are closely 
> related to modern German 'Gosse', which means again 'stream or flow 
> of water'. 
> 
> Well, yes, there are many derivative words like this from *geutan 
in 
> the Germanic languages. A Norse parallel to the German gosse is the 
> term gos, which refers to an 'outpouring' of something, also used 
> about carbonated drinks like coca-cola, etc.. It seems like a 
fairly 
> generic Germanic root, found in various forms. 
> 
> > Thus, the place name Gutinge (Göttingen) refers to ' the place of
> the people at the stream of water'. In fact, some sources even refer
> to a Saxon 'sub-tribe' as the Gudinge from the same area. The name 
of
> the Goths has clearly the same linguistic roots and it may have had 
> the same development, only that usually the more sophisticated 
> interpretation of 'giessen', i.e. to pour or flow is employed to 
> arrive at  the meaning of 'the once who were created by the flow of 
> semen from a god'. 
> 
> Naturally, 'giessen' is Modern German from PGmc. *geutan, meaning 
> the same thing, essentially. 
> 
> > Again, I think this is a bit far fetched and the name may simply 
> refer to their settlements at the Vistula river/flow Guta.
> 
> Etymologically, it could. 
> 
> > I know this is a little trivial, but since this purely 
descriptive 
> meaning has given rise to Gutinge and the Gudinge people, why 
should 
> it not also have given rise to the Gutane. Or is there any good 
> argument that the term Gutane must have to do with the flow of 
semen 
> instead of water?
> 
> No good arguments to this end, as far as I am aware of. The only 
> thing which seems certain here is that it is somehow related to the 
> PGmc. verb *geutan, which is not telling us very much about why the 
> Goths were so called. Possible explanation are many, all highly 
> theoretical, I think. The same is true of the Geats, *gautôs, who 
> seem to have derived their name from the same stem (*geut-, seen in 
> the verb *geutan). Incidentally, they live by a major river, called 
> Gautelfr, as well. But it is hard to say is these names really have 
> anything to do with living by pouring water. It seems, here, that 
> these name-givings are buried in the mists of time, giving us 
little 
> to stand on. 




Hails Karl,

thanks for your input. If there is no particular linguistic or 
historical evidence available to make us think that *geutan refers 
nothing but simply the pouring or flowing of water I would prefer the 
more mundane explanation and think that Gutane means just people 
living by flowing water, just as with the Saxon Gutinge. Btw, the 
name of the German town and region of Gotha (AD 775 villa Gotaha), 
means villa by the flowing water. 





Is it known why the Gutinge were so called? Venturing a 
> guess, I might suggest that these name-gifts from *geut- could have 
> something to do with the god *Wôdanaz, who bares personal names 
from 
> this same root (ON Gautr, Goti); however, this is only a suggestion 
> about a possible relation based on sharing a common root, a guess.



It is not known, but all the interpretation I found just refer 
to 'flowing water'. 





 
> Obviously, these names are pre-historical, pre-dating any literacy 
> amongst Germanic folk, and no explanations have survived. I venture 
> another guess about a possible relation to the mythical founder of 
> Gutland (see Guta Saga), who had 3 sons, the first of whom was 
named 
> Guti (Go. *Guta). The name is a masc. n-stem, weak, and is the same 
> as the Gothic word for 'Goth', *guta pl. *gutans. Thus, according 
to 
> this guess, *gutans would be descendants of *Guta, mythical 
ancestor 
> of all Goths. By extension, Gutland (Go. *Gutlanda) would be called 
> after the Goths as whole, being a root-formation, rather than after 
> a mythical ancestor *Guta, as otherwise we would expect **Gutaland, 
> Go. **Gutinsland, which do not occur. Again, this is only a guess, 
> not a real explanation. 



Often placenames derive simply from geographic characteristics. If 
villa Gotaha was the house at the flowing water and if Gutinge 
refered to the people at the place with flowing water I find it 
plausible that other such names drived according to the same logic. 
This also suggests that this nameform could arise independently in 
different regions without migration etc. 

Cheers
Dirk





> 
> Regards,
> kunjareths
> 
> > Cheers,
> > 
> > Dirk
> >
>







You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>. 
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    gothic-l-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/