newcommer

[dciurchea]

I thank you for reading my post. The first (visible) benefit of analysis
of 'gothic' language is the link and relationship with today's German.
Thus one may hope that other  antic data of known origin may be debugged
by using today's fonems also. Since I can't post pictures and docs in
the Files folder, in the following days I shall develop posts  with
pictures in my personal forum
(http://duci.forumco.com/topic~TOPIC_ID~72.asp-now
<http://duci.forumco.com/topic~TOPIC_ID~72.asp-now>  in romanian will be
doubbed as  'the gothic connection'). I invite you to see the arguments
and pictures there.

I am not recomposing old Thracian, but using local fonems;  my point is
that:

a) in Transylvania (antic Dacia - not all Romania) the person's family
name is formed as a derivate of the village;

b) toponimics are conserved through time by shepherds

This is a way to order some hystorical data and to identify some useful
fonems.

With respect to the Dacian's (Getic) religion little is known, except
for Zalmoxis (the chief god)  and Kogaion (the sacred mountain).
Trajan's Column presents Dacians with some boxes in hand, which should
be the 'ancestor's relics boxes' - essential in christianism and the
basics of gothic ancestry. The cult of ancestors should have been very
powerfull. Still today the orhodoxian Church is organising 6-7 days of
pilgrimage to the saint remains of local saints.  The Dacians chiefs had
a phrygian cap-indicating again their thracian origin.

I shall post an exercept of the classics: Strabo ("Getae were
Thracians") and Jordannes ( "Getae and Gepidae are kinsmen"). Please
observe the cathegory of Getae 'basileians', which are exactly the
dacians-with huge gold mines- conquered by Trajan in 106AD.

----------------
The Geography of  Strabo , published in the Loeb Classical Library, 1924
, Book VII, Chapter 3

2 Now the Greeks used to suppose that the Getae were Thracians; and the
Getae lived on either side the Ister, as did also the Mysi, these also
being Thracians and identical with the people who are now called Moesi;
from these Mysi sprang also the Mysi who now live between the Lydians
and the Phrygians and Trojans. And the Phrygians themselves are
Brigians, a Thracian tribe, as are also the Mygdonians, the Bebricians,
the Medobithynians,59 the Bithynians, and the Thynians, and, I think,
also the Mariandynians.
------------------------------------------------------------------------\
-------------------------------

Folklore (from N. Savescu "Noi nu suntem urmasii Romei"):

Macedonean Dialect               Romanian
Cari-n'i bati, noaptea            Cine-mi bate noaptea
La firida mea, moi?                La fereastra mea, mai?
Io huia, msata Marioara      Eu sunt, frumoasa Marioara
Nu-n'i ti-aspirea, moi.          Nu te speria, mai.
Scoal aprond'i lampa            Scoala de-aprinde lampa
S-ti vedua fata ta,                  Sa-ti vad fata ta
Fata ta tea alb-arosi             Fata ta cea alb`-rosie
Ca trandafila.                          Ca de trandafir.

See also:
http://www.vlahoi.gr/vlahs.asp?RFRM=http://www.vlahoi.gr/history.htm
<http://www.vlahoi.gr/vlahs.asp?RFRM=http://www.vlahoi.gr/history.htm>
http://www.vlachs.gr/uk/index-uk.htm
<http://www.vlachs.gr/uk/index-uk.htm>
http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/reports/vlachs.html
<http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/reports/vlachs.html>

------------------------------------------------------------------------\
---------------------------------
12 But there is also another division of the country which has endured
from early times, for some of the people are called Daci, whereas others
are called Getae — Getae, those who incline towards the Pontus and
the east, and Daci, those who incline in the opposite direction towards
Germany and the sources of the Ister. The Daci, I think, were called
Daï in early times; whence the slave names "Geta" and "Daüs"156
which prevailed among the Attic people; for this is more probable than
that "Daüs" is from those Scythians who are called "Daae," for they
live far away in the neighbourhood of Hyrcania, and it is not reasonable
to suppose that slaves were brought into Attica from there

13. 
 Be that as it may, although the Getae and Daci once attained
to very great power, so that they actually could send forth an
expedition of two hundred thousand men, they now find themselves reduced
to as few as forty thousand, and they have come close to the point of
yielding obedience to the Romans, though as yet they are not absolutely
submissive, because of the hopes which they base on the Germans, who are
enemies to the Romans.
17  
 seaboard between the Borysthenes and the Ister consists,
first, of the Desert of the Getae; Today Dobrudja
then the country of the Tyregetans;   Today Moldavia and Muntenia
and after it the country of the Iazygian Sarmatians   Today North
and East Transylvania
and that of the people called the Basileians  Today Banat and The
East Carpathians and The Somes Valley, around the gold mines =  Dacia =
what Trajan Conquered in 106AD. See the (basileus) adoration of Trajan
on the Column
and that of the Urgi, who in general are nomads,
  though a few are interested also in farming; these people, it is said,
dwell also along the Ister, often on both sides. In the interior dwell,
first, those Bastarnians whose country borders on that of the Tyregetans
and Germans — they also being, one might say, of Germanic stock; and
they are divided up into several tribes, for a part of them are called
Atmoni and Sidoni, while those who took possession of Peuce, the island
in the Ister, are called "Peucini," whereas the "Roxolani" (the most
northerly of them all) roam the plains between the Tanaïs and the
Borysthenes. In fact, the whole country towards the north from Germany
as far as the Caspian Sea is, so far as we know it, a plain, but whether
any people dwell beyond the Roxolani we do not know. Now the Roxolani,
under the leadership of Tasius, carried on war even with the generals of
Mithridates Eupator; they came for the purpose of assisting Palacus, the
son of Scilurus, as his allies, and they had the reputation of being
warlike; ..

..

Jordannes (The Project Gutenberg eBook, The Origin and Deeds of the
Goths, by Jordanes, Translated by Charles C. Mierow):

XVII ........ Should you ask how the Getae and Gepidae are kinsmen, I
can tell you in a few words. You surely remember that in the beginning I
said the Goths went forth from the bosom of the island of Scandza with
Berig, their king, sailing in only three ships toward the hither shore
of Ocean, namely to Gothiscandza. One of these three ships proved to be
slower than the others, as is usually the case, and thus is said to have
given the tribe their name, for in their language _gepanta_ means slow.
Hence it came to pass that gradually and by corruption the name Gepidae
was coined for them by way of reproach. For undoubtedly they too trace
their origin from the stock of the Goths, but because, as I have said,
_gepanta_ means something slow and stolid, the word Gepidae arose as a
gratuitous name of reproach. I do not believe this is very far wrong,
for they are slow of thought and too sluggish for quick movement of
their bodies.



--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com <mailto:gothic-l at yahoogroups.com> ,
Guenther Ramm <ualarauans at ...> wrote:
>
>
>
> dciurchea <dciurchea at ...> wrote:
> > I am not in agreement nor with Romanian historians, nor with
>
> Hungarian  historians since I consider Jordannes work as a forgery.
>
> Thus the fonems in Getica are pretty Romanian (Thracic) not german.
>
>
>   Dear Ciurchea, I wonder is there any strong reason to so
unconditionally associate Old Thracian and today's Romanian which is
all Romance and no way other? It is Albanian (Shqiptar), I guess, which
may nowadays claim (linguistically) an Illyro-Thracian origin. Were
Dacians Thracian? Anyway, to say Romanians are pure descendants of them
would mean to ignore the Roman, Greek, Slavic, Magyar etc. inputs. Even
East-Germanic tribes paid their contribution, as is seen from a number
of Gothic loanwords in today's Romanian (I mean Gothic in broader
sense – they can be Gepidic as well). The Gut-thiuda of the Calendar
was most likely situated north of the Danube (ripa Gothica of
contemporary historiographs) in what is now Muntenia. The word that the
Goths seemingly used to refer to the natives of the land was *Walhos M.
–a Pl., which is common Germanic name of Celtic and Romance peoples
(up to NE Wales and NHG welsch) and indicates pretty well that this
post-Dacian population had
>  been already Romanized after less than 200 years of the Imperial
Rule. Being borrowed by succeeding Slavs as vlakhu (see also BLACOI in
medieval Byzantine sources) it produced Walachia which was changed to
Romania as a name of the land only in the 19th century, perhaps to
emphasize the Roman heritage after gaining the independence. If I error
please correct me.
>
>
> > The Gepid fonem in Jordannes(Ce piz... or Ce pid.. in Romanian ) is
>
> actuall an insult, "what the heck" in Romanian, addressed by the two
>
> brothers to the third, more slow.
>
>
>   Again, is this phrase Romanian or reconstructed Thracian? (and what
do we know then about Old-Thracian?) If it is Modern Romanian, how about
the fact that Jordanes wrote in the 6th century when the East-Romance
dialects were probably not more than a sort of vernacular not much
different from the Vulgar Latin spoken throughout the Empire? I can
easily mistake here since I'm not an expert in Romanics and at any
rate I hope there's nothing offensive in what I've said. And how
would you explain then the evidence of OE which has Gifdas?
>   This etymologizing cannot help reminding of Isidor and his deriving
Gepids as "Gipedes" from Lat. pes, pedis with the meaning
"those preferring to walk on foot" (and therefore always slow?)
or something like that. It shows well that the name of Gepids was and
still is an enigma.
>   The real crux about this name, I guess, is this –p- which is
unanimously fixed by Roman and Greek writers while the OE form presumes
Gothic –b-. Be it *Gibidos or *Gabideis – why > Gepides et sim.?
And the form Gepedoios in Getica – doesn't it speak in favor of
Gothic –p-?
>
>
> > This is important as I see the
>
> gothic mythology derived from the Getic customs, i.e. the mythology
>
> of my ancestors, now lost.
>
>
>
> That's interesting. Is there any evidence for it? And how much is
known of what the Goths REALLY believed in, besides the ethnogenetic
myth around *Gauts (I'm sorry still failing to get to Ingemar
Nordgren's book dealing with the subject). Of cause we can
reconstruct names like *Wodans, *Thunr(u)s, *Friddi and the like, but
were they familiar to Goths? Their wanderings and intercourse with many
non-Germanic tribes and cultures must have left a definite stamp on
their beliefs. I read somewhere that those of them who had wandered deep
into Hellas started to adore its old pagan altars rather than become
Christian, it being their way to get naturalized in the new homeland.
Does anybody know something about it?
>
> Hlutramma hairtin
>
> Walahrabns
>
> Send instant messages to your online friends
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com <http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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