Aiwropais Ahvos

Tue May 16 06:54:27 UTC 2006

Hi Ualarauans and others!

Of course, rivers of various "colors" are scattered around the world, and the name "White river" is too habitual to draw with such an argument to quick conclusions. In some cases, a "white" community may be of importance, in most cases not. For example, I guess a "white" area encompasses Baltic countries (the stem balt- means in Lithuanian white) and Belarus (the stem bel- means in Slavic same white). But I do not see reasons to expand this community up to Volga.
The official Russian history considers the so called "chyud'" of Old Russian chronicles as a Finnish people that populated the territory around old Novgorod on Volkhov. Though long ago linguists derived this "chyud'" from Gothic "thiuda" (with palatalization of th and d), the official Russian science refused to admit the evident facts in its perpetual fight against the so called "normanism", i.e. participation of any Germanic components in creation of the first Russian state Kiev's Rus'. Meanwhile, if the Chernyakhov culture was Gothic, if the "chyud'" was a Germanic tribe, everything changes in the old Russian prehistory! Derivation of the name of Volkhov river from Old Germanic is therefore of great interest and importance. I would be very grateful to everybody who could clarify this point a little bit if nothing else.

Vladimir

-----Original Message-----
From: gothic-l at yahoogroups.com [mailto:gothic-l at yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of Guenther Ramm
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 8:03 AM
To: gothic-l at yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [gothic-l] Aiwropais Ahvos

Hailai jut Frithureik jah Waldamer!

  > Fredrik <gadrauhts at ...> wrote:
  > Does the name bulgar has anything to do with the river name Volga?
  > If I remember right the bulgars came from volga.
  > If this is so, when did the bulgars occur in history? At the time of
  > the goths, and did the bulgars and goths ever seen eachother?
  > What would Bulgaria be in gothic?
  > (One etymology of bulgar is turkic bulgha = sable.)

  - As far as I heard the tradition of the Danubian Bulgaria connected its name with Volga, but the modern etymology denies it in favor of some Turkic roots (like bulgha or bulg- "to mingle" etc.- see Manie Lombard's post 8823 if your PC decodes all those terrible symbols, unlike mine, unfortunately). I guess the today's Slavic-speaking Bulgarians correlate to Bulgars no more than French to Franks and maybe Russians to Roslagen Vikings.
  - Jordanes definitely mentions Bulgars telling about events of the 6th century (Get. 37: ...distendunt supra mare Ponticum Bulgarum sedes...) as one of the post-Hunnish tribes widely known (notissimos - ibidem) after their assaults on Roman Illyricum and Thracia. As Jordanes was most likely a Goth and a Gothic historiograph we can admit Goths at least heard of Bulgars and perhaps they could have seen if not Bulgars then their great-grandfathers on the camps of Champagne under Attila in 451 AD when Bulgars had not yet distinguished themselves from the mass of other Hunnish tribes.
  - As for a name in Gothic, I'd propose Bulg(a)ros M. -a if it had come via Latin (what exactly was the Turco-Bulgarian form I don't know). Couldn't it acquire a folk-etymological link to the Germanic stem represented in OE belgan sv. 3 "to swell with anger", "become enraged" (fits pretty well in with their presumable image in Roman eyes)? But for the name of today's European country maybe we better retain *Thrakiland and *Thrakeis M. -i Pl.? It's the same way as *Walhaland for Romania - most probable (in my opinion) name the historical Goths could have for these territories. To specially point out Romanians as distinguished from the West Romance (which might be quite easy *Walhos as well) we could perhaps use *Austra-walhos and Austra-walhaland? Then Italy could be *Wistra-walhaland (not to say *Wisuwalha- :) or even *Walhiskaland (after German Welschland). Compare it with an elder-Runic (?) kenning walha kurne "welsh corn" - "gold", and you'll get an idea of that
 "terrestrial paradise" which Goths perhaps imagined Roman lands to be.
  I understand pretty well I'm dealing here with subjects which can concern personal feelings of ethnic identity and I sincerely apologize if something seems "annoying" (it can easily be totally wrong). Anyway, I hope you know there's no offensive intent of mine.

  > Еърфрю Юнвдкокф <vegorov at ...> wrote:
  > The name Itil was known at least since the Khazar times, as one of their
  > capitals disposed on Volga (more exactly modern Akhtuba) was called also Itil.
  > In particular, Ibn-Fadlan knew in the early 10 c. both the river and town Itil.
  > However, origins of the name itself are veiled in obscurity, though Turkic
  > sources are commonly accepted.

  - All I read about Khazars is Arthur Koestler's The Thirteenth Tribe and that is said to be rather belletristic. The early 10th century is still too late for Goths unless we take into consideration the Crimean Goths. I heard some Turkic words were discovered in the Busbecquian Vocabulary that means they had been borrowed by the Crimean Goths (?).

  > According to Gumilev, the Hunns inhabited the steppes on the left Volga's bank
  > as early as in the 3rd c., with the Alans interlaid between the Hunns and
  > Ostrogoths. Maybe Volga had those times another name, something like Ra or Ras
  > of an unknown origin, perhaps Alanic.

  - I guess this Rha could be Avestan Rangha, Sanskrit Rasa - name of a mythical river - kept by Scytho-Sarmatians (= Alans) as a part of their Iranian heritage. If this North-Iranian form would be *Rah(a) (quite not sure here) > Gothic *Rah-ahva > *Rahva??? Well, to say such reconstruction procedure is arbitrary and groundless is to be too soft.

  > The Ossetins, having a powerful Caucasian substrate, are not so direct
  > descendants from the Alans, but their language preserves some features and
  > lexical borrowings from Alanic, _don_ as running water in particular.
  > Nevertheless, "epics reminiscences of their fights with a people GUT" look as a
  > big overstatement.

  - It's a pity if so. You know we interested in the Goths still hope to find somewhere in far corners something living about them, or about those who saw them living :)

  > Yes, Finnish _valkea_ is also one of conjectural etymological derivations for
  > Volga. Note that the region of the upper Volga knows the White lake
  (_Beloozero_) and the White river -- the left confluent of Kama (Belaya i.e.
  > White [river] in Russian or Ag-Idel i.e. White Itil in Bashkir).

  - I remember you wrote about it in connection with Poland and the Balts, I guess. Do you assume some toponymic substrate behind all these "white" names? Who could it be ethnically connected with? And isn't "white river" a worldwide spread name unable to be restricted to some local area?

  > Derivation of Volhov from East Germanic is very interesting for me. Could you
  > add anything on this topic?

  No, no, Gothic *Alhawi I proposed for Fin. Olhava > Rus. Volkhov is just a slapdash phonetically close construction with some meaning. It could be e.g. *Walahva "river of the slain" both for Volkhov and Volga as well (with semantics close to ON Dylgja). What is the true etymology of the Finnish name I don't know. Maybe we could speculate whether the Goths like later Variags used that Volkhov-Dnepr way moving south and thus could leave some of their toponymics underway. If one day some scholar would prove this and suggest Volkhov < *Alhawi, we should come up and demand our share of his Nobel prize :)
  Best Regards
  Ualarauans

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