Aiwropais Ahvos jah Thiudos

Wed May 24 17:18:05 UTC 2006

I guess it doesn’t take a genius “to clarify the matter”. What so much more do you know, Vladimir, neither to respect an academic authority nor to heed a minimum etiquette in polemics? I was well aware of the existence of that kind of self-hating nazi-loving persons around Germanic topics, but I didn’t expect to meet them here.

  Ualarauans

åÇÏÒÏ× ÷ÌÁÄÉÍÉÒ <vegorov at ipiran.ru> wrote:  Hi Ualarauans!

Long citations from Vasmer are hardly a best filling for the correspondence, especially if they do not clarify the matter. A lot of water has run away in Volga and Volkhov since Vasmer's times. No doubt, we know much more than Vasmer regarding the first millennium AD. I'd like to obtain some new evidences on the Germanic past of modern Northwest Russia and East Baltic region, if anybody has them.

Vladimir

P.S. Yes, same von Braun. Nazi? Maybe, but I gather not more than, for example, his Soviet colleague Korolyov was a communist. Both were first of all gifted engineers ready to tune themselves up in order to have possibility to busy with the favorite work.

-----Original Message-----
From: gothic-l at yahoogroups.com [mailto:gothic-l at yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of Guenther Ramm
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 3:53 PM
To: gothic-l at yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [gothic-l] Re: Aiwropais Ahvos jah Thiudos

Hi Vladimir!

As a fulfillment of my own prophecy to provide some etymologic reference on that controversial matter about chud'...
You seem to mistrust your colleagues at the Academy of Sciences, so I'll confine myself with Max Vasmer. He's not Russian and therefore maybe less likely to participate with that scientists' conspiracy you told of :) His Russisches Etymologisches WÃrterbuch was published in 1950-1958 in Heidelberg and re-edited in 1986-1987 by Moscow "Progress" publishing house. He asserts as well (vol. 4, p. 378) that _chud'_ is a name of the Old Finns once populating regions of Pskov, Novgorod, Archangelsk and Olonets, and that the primordial meaning of the word is usually held to be "Germanen" with its origin brought back to Gothic thiuda.
Regarding the "Chudskoye" (Peipus) lake, it was not his idea to explain it from Gothic *thiudisks saiws "Deutscher See" as I wrongly said but that of the "Learned Estonian Society in Dorpat" (Sitzber. der Gel. Estn. Ges., 1920: 112) which he cites (ibidem), however critically. He reports also the lake's popular name Chukhonskoye ozero.
Here I'd like to adduce another source. It is Russian-Estonian dictionary (Wene-Eesti SÈnaraamat. - Jurjew (Tartu): K. A. Raag'i kirjastus, 1904), p. 1015, where Russ. _chukhna_ is defined as follows: "so Russians call in general Finnish-related peoples of the Baltic Sea region - Estonians, Finns and others, including those Finns living around St.-Petersburg" (nÈnda nimetawad wenelased ØleØldse LÄÄnemere-ÄÄrseid Soomesugu rahwaid - eestlasi, soomlasi j.t., iseÄranis aga Peterburi Ømber asuwaid soomlasi); hence _chukhonets_ M., _chukhonka_ F. "Finn, Estonian" (soomlane, eestlane); _chukhonski_ Adj. "Finnish, Estonian" (Soome-, Eesti-). With regard to _chukhna_ being a debased form of _chud'_, it wouldn't look very convincing to assume that these semantics in spoken Russian could have resulted from a suspected historic prejudice in Russian scientific circles. It seems much more probable that this meaning has been retained in vulgo since the times of the first contacts
between the Slavs and the Finns in this region.
Incidentally, Vasmer denies a Finnish etymology for "Volga" (vol. 1, p. 336-7) leading it together with Czech Vlha (the Elbe basin) and Polish Wilga (the Vistula basin) back to PSl. *Vilga (reduced -i-), cognate to OChSl _vlaga_ "moisture" (different ablaut stages) and words of other IE languages with similar meanings. It's not Volga but Vologda which comes from VepsÄ vÅuged (< *valkeÒa), Fin. valkea, Est. valge "white" (p. 340)
Regarding that RA of Ptolemy, it was not my idea of connecting it with Avestan Rangha and Sanskrit Rasa but Vasmer's (it just remained nameless in my memory after reading it some time ago). Looking at Mordvin names of Volga - Rav, Ravo, Rava (ibidem) - one could really suppose some Gothic mediating form like *Rahva or *Rawi... Btw. Tatars use Kara Idyl ("black Itil") alongside with Idyl alone for Volga as distinguished from Ak Idyl "Kama" or "Belaya" (ibidem).
To finish with Vasmer, on p. 346 he tells of Swedish ålhava "Volkhov river" attested in a 16th century record < Fin. Olhavanjoki, Olhava.

Ualarauans

P.S. Didn't that nazi think-tank von Braun work for the U. S. after 1945?

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