Heather vs. Wolfram

[Ingemar Nordgren]

Hi Michael,

-- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, Michael Erwin <merwin at ...> wrote:
>
> I know that the English translation colors my understanding of the  
> Gothic word; a 'people' is rarely as clearly-bounded as a 'tribe.'  
> But Gutthiuda at least seems to have had rather blurry edges; were  
> the Alans Goths? were the Gepids?

The Alans were not Goths but rather associates. I however regard the
Gepids as a Gothic people from the same origin area but the tribe was
formed later and with people both from the Vistula region and as well
from other folks around the Baltic inclusive Scandinavia. Jerzy
Ockulic has done some diggings at Elblag showing the formation
structure. They seem accordingly  to be Gothic and so also Getica states.

> 
> Wolfram views the Thervingi-Visogoths and Greuthungi-Ostrogoths as  
> lasting divisions centered around the Balthic and Amal lines  
> respectively. Heather has several criticisms of the Wenskus-Wolfram  
> model:
> 
> (1) Roman policy focused on the Thervingi, along the danube, and not  
> the Greuthungi, although Wolfram's model implies that the Greuthungi  
> were several times more extensive, and therefore more powerful as a  
> political unit, than the Thervingi.
> 
> (2) Heather lists twelve known 'Gothic' groups who entered the Empire  
> (1998, p.53) (although I'm not convinced of the Gothicness of the  
> Radagasius group); of these two are Therving, three are Greuthung,  
> and the remainder are probably not Therving.
> 
> (3) Known Chernyakhov settlements seem to show more than one major  
> political center east of the Dnestr.
> 
> (4) Cassiodorus or Jordanes is making up the Ermaneric-Theodoric  
> connection for propaganda value.
> 
> Heather suggests that the Thervingi and Greuthungi were only two of  
> several Gothic groups, but  the two closest to the Roman frontier.
 
I as well beleive there were more original major tribes and so does
Wolfram. Joseph Svennung as well has made a try to analyse those
groups closer. Still they seem to have been in a great  association
with the Greuthungi and when the term Ostrogoths is introduced they
just disappear as singular names in the sources. The family story of
Teodoric and a lot of the Amal genealogy is of course quite unreliable
and mostly constructed.

Best
Ingemar 






You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>. 
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/

<*> Your email settings:
    Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/join
    (Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
    mailto:gothic-l-digest at yahoogroups.com 
    mailto:gothic-l-fullfeatured at yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    gothic-l-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/