Tribes, peoples and their leaders

[ualarauans]

Wulthus in Hauhistjam, Iggwimer!!

Yet under that strong impression from just looking through your text 
(which I'm going to study in detail tonight) I can say I've 
discovered a real treasury of information on subjects which I deem 
most intriguing and most exciting. Your book is definitely a must 
for all interested in Germanic pre-Christian religion in its 
correlation with the social structure and historical events. I'm 
looking forward to find there answers to a lot of questions I've 
got. So I'll better restrain from questioning you further here until 
I'll have read the whole volume, OK? I truly hope you didn't have to 
tip the fragment all over again, having it already in your computer, 
did you? Which I'd never forgive to myself... Still, this is the 
only and best way to show all stubborn doubters that the book is 
really worth ordering. Thank you very much!

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Ingemar Nordgren" <ingemar at ...> 
wrote:
>
> I must confess I am a little confused after all different
> interpretaions  of PGmc name forma.

Yes, I think I did overuse reconstructing PG forms, but still I have 
not formed my final opinion which word meant what (and when), 
considering all the numerous historical, social and religious 
connotations... I just tried to imperfectly "PGermanize" suggestions 
made by David and you adding some of my own ideas on the topic. 
Which all naturally resulted in a mixture of sometimes incompatible 
and misinterpreted versions, dreadful even to look upon. But I'm 
sure we've got here members who would set me straight.

> I am as I wrote not a linguist.
> Still I feel that the opinion of Michael Erwin might have some
> relevans concerning the translating situation of Wulfila.
> 
> In short I refer to fertility cult in connection with a sacral king
> who is responsible for the cult of the whole people. Odinistic - 
i.e.
> the cults of Gaut and later Óðin-gaut - kings are primarily
> responsible for the cult of warriors and chieftains and represent 
the
> God towards the warriors and members of schamanistic leagues.Of 
course
> an Odinistic king also uses the means of the fertility cult and
> performs similar rites et c. as the former sacral king. He can 
however
> not claim his power on being divine, but instead he acts as 
pontifex
> maximus-the highest priest and claims ancestry from a god.A classic
> sacral king is the guarantor of the fertility of the ground on a
> divine basis and claims himself to be a reincarnated god. The
> Odinistic kings, as remarked, just claim to be ancestors of a God,
> i.e. heroes. The Swedish Inglings claimed to be divine, to be the
> reborn Frejr, but the later Skilfings just claimed ancestry from 
Óðinn
> but kept as well Ingr in the form of Yngve-Frejr as grandson of
> Óðinn.I have treated this extensively in my book and I suggest you
> read closer there.
> 
> Typical of a genuine fertility sacral king is that he is not 
allowed
> to remain outside the realm and he has no real political power. If 
it
> comes to war he leads the defense but all activities outside the
> borders must be carried out by his chieftains. If the tribe/people
> however is moving without a territory he gains total political and
> military control. That is the reason I consider the þiuðans to be a
> sacral king. This indeed excludes the necessity for appointing a
> special war leader.Another matter is that he is hereditary and not
> elected.
> The referred kings of the army still could be the *_xarjanaz_ or
> drauþins I presume.They are as well absolutely nessecary when the
> people lives within permanent borders of course.
> 
> Maybe Getica calls Ermanaric a þiuðans just because Cassiodorus 
meant
> he ruled a great area and fought the Huns, but we have no 
information
> at all about a possible organisation of this claimed realm. Hence 
nor
> do we know how many 'kinds' were involved but, as you suggest, the
> Greutungi sure must have been 'a kind' with that much people. Still
> there are other tribes/peoples mentioned at least marginally. Also 
the
> Crimean Goths are of discussed origin and might as well be 'a 
kind'.
> Wether they were within the same realm is as well discussed.

Of some relevance here could probably be the famous list of 
peoples "conquered" by Ermanaricus (Getica 116-7), which opens with 
words [habebat si quidem quos domuerat] golthescytha thiudos... I 
hold most convincing the interpretation of this place as a corrupted 
Gothic word *Skwtha-thiudos, i.e. "the peoples of Scythia" preceding 
the enumeration of their names (compare Gut-thiuda, Sví-þjo:ð, Angel-
þeod etc). These subjugated (or, better to say, affiliated into the 
Gothic federative multiethnic Empire) peoples were thus regarded 
thiudos. Ermanaricus could be titled thiudans in the sense "ruler of 
all the (Skwtha-) thiudos".

> The reason I see the kindins as the keeper of the functions of the
> sacral king, and not as a genuine sacral king, is the fact he is
> elected. The construction with a council has, as far as I know, no
> similarity in a classical sacral king context.
> 
> I agree there must have been a 'kind'organisation, which I never 
dared
> claim before, and with your linguistic support the kindins must be 
the
> chief of this 'kind'. Accordingly he later might be called a king, 
but
> maybe as well reminds of a clan leader- who is elected. He may very
> well always have had the functions to guard the fertility cult as a
> means of ethnicity, and as well the responsibility for leading 
defense
> war, but I really doubt he was a genuine divine sacral king. He 
rather
> was head of his own related 'kind'.
> 
> The reiks, which I regard as 'kuningas', if the title existed of
> course, were pure Odinistic chiefs who led the local warrior cult 
and
> the ancestor cult of the kuni. Within every kuni there was as well 
a
> goðe and a 'guðja' and each kuni had their own holy relics.These 
two
> concerned themselves with the fertility cult. As I remarked before 
the
> 'kuningas', 'reiks','arcons','basileios' et c. could be compared 
with
> clan chiefs. In war they locally represented the god, and in that
> respect they took oaths from the warriors. Jens Ulrich has shown 
that
> oathtaking was obligatory for a warrior - aiþs.
> 
> I really could write a lot more but it is already much space used 
and
> still more text comes below. I tried to attach a file but was not
> allowed since the nessecary buttons were not available. Instead I 
glue
> the file directly in this message. It is an excerpt of my book
> covering some basics on my analysis of the classical sacral 
kingdom. I
> suggest you try to get the book- it is available as e-book as 
well -
> or else nobody else will have space to send messages for a good 
while.
> 
> Best regards
> Iggwimer

Ualarauans





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