Terwingi and Tyringi/Turingi

[faltin2001]

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans at ...> wrote:
>
> Hi Dirk,
> 
> Yes, what I never could understand is how [Hermun]duri evolved to 
> Thur[ingi] phonetically. But neither the suggested Teruingi > 
> Teuringi is a regular phonetic development. Do we have other 
> examples of a similar metathesis in would-be Ostmitteldeutsch? Or 
> was it just a "typo" which did happen in Latin spellings by 
medieval 
> scribes. It couldn't probably be Gothic, as *Tairwiggos doesn't 
get 
> turned to **Tiuriggos / **Tauriggos by a mere re-positioning of 
two 
> letters. 

And peoples seldom get their name as a result of a scribal 
> error, don't they? Maybe there could have been a contamination of 
> *Duringi and Teruingi?
> 
> Since and until when was Dnestr being called Tyras? If borrowed by 
> the Goths as *Twra, what the actual pronunciation would have been, 
> [tira] or [türa], or maybe even [tura]? Jordanes used Danaster 
which 
> may hint to Gothic *Danastr(u)s as another current name of the 
> river. If G. Kampers' hypothesis be correct, the proto-form was 
> *Twriggos in Gothic, right?
> 






Hi Ualarauans,

the Hermun-duri to Thuringi shift seems to be completely rejected 
nowadays. Its main support rested on the perception that the two 
people lived in the same region. Yet, as Springer shows in the 
earlier cited article that is not really the case. In addition, the 
temporal gap between Hermunduri and the Thyringi is too big as well. 
Finally, as you have mentioned the shift from d to th is strange. 

Grahn-Hoek argues that all that is needed to get from Theruingi to 
Theuringi is a metathesis of e and u. She mentioned that there are 
other expamples of such switches. Interestingly, a Thuringian gau 
(pagus), called the Dyringo/Duringo in low German was also rendered 
as Duervingo and Durvinge in medieval documents. The switch from Th 
to D in low German occured around the 10th/11th century. Before this 
the name would have been Thuervingo and Thurvinge, which is 
basically analogue to Thyrvinge and remarkably close to T(h)
eruingi/Terwingi. Another, 11th century name form of Thuringia is 
Dvoringen.

Also, note that Odovacer was called rex Thorcilingorum. It was 
usually assumed that the Thorcilingi were either an otherwise 
unknown tribe or the name of the dynasty. Only the Greek Malchos 
fragment solves the riddle. This source states that the father of 
Onulfus, the brother of Odovacer was a Thuringian on his father's 
side and a Scirian on his mothers side. Hence, Thorcilingorum would 
probably have to be emendated to Thoringorum. This emendation was 
recently supported by Castritius and Pohl. The example shows that 
strange scribal errors did occur, especially with the name of the 
Thuringians. In fact, Grahn-Hoek shows several examples were authors 
confused the names Teruingi and Teuringi.  

Another interesting line of argument pertains to the rex Gothorum 
Radagaisus. Radagaisus attacked Italy in 406 with a large army, 
which was composed of different groups and led by two other unnamed 
princes. Zosimus stated that this army had come from the region 
between Danube and Rhine. The land between Danube and Rhine is 
exactly how the later Thuringian kingdom is described. Grahn-Hoek 
suggests that Radagaisus was a successor of Athanaric as leader of 
the remnants of the Athanaric-Terwingi who had chosen not to join 
Fritigern and Alaviv on Roman territory. A 6th century Thuringian-
Warnian prince had the name Radagais/Radagis, while two princesses 
were called Rada-gunde, and one prince had the name Rada-ulf and one 
Arta-gais. In other words, the name components of Radagaisus were 
quite prevalent in the Thuringian royal family which could point to 
a family link. Radagaisus is often believed to be a Ostrogoths, 
because the sources state that he was a pagan, while the Visigoths 
were Christians. Yet, he is not mentioned in the Ostrogothic Amal 
geneology and as a leader of the anti-Roman and anti-Christian 
Athanaric Goths he would have been a pagan. 

Cheers,

Dirk








> 
> 
> --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <d.faltin@> wrote:
> >
> > I've read the new article "Thüringer" in the Reallexikon der
> > Germanischen Altertumskunde (RGA). The authors clearly reject 
the 
> old
> > theory, which saw the Thuringi as descendents of the Hermun-
duri. 
> M.
> > Springer argues in the historical section of the study that 
neither
> > the temporal, nor the geographical and especially not the 
> linguistic
> > arguments allow such a link between the Thuringi and Hermunduri. 
In
> > the archaeological section of the study, C. Theune supports this 
> view
> > and states bluntly that the newer scholarship rejects the link
> > between Thuringi and Hermunduri (p. 536).
> > 
> > This leaves the question open where did the Thuringi come from. 
M.
> > Springer discusses the theory, presented (again) recently by 
Grahn-
> > Hoek, which argued that the Thuringi originated from remnants of 
> the
> > Tervingi. The idea is that the name T(h)(e)uringi is derived 
from 
> the
> > form T(h)eruingi. This theory has the advantage that it is
> > linguistically feasible and that it makes sense also from a 
> temporal
> > point of view. I.e. the Theruingi disappear just at the time 
when 
> the
> > Theuringi appear at the Danube. Grahn-Hoek sites also a lot of
> > historical argumentation for this theory, but the best support 
> comes
> > from archaeology. Thus, archaeologists have shown that carriers 
of
> > the Chernyakhovs/Sintana-de-Mures culture had moved from the 
Black
> > Sea to the heartland of the later Thuringian realm in the last
> > decades of the 4th century. B. Schmidt names this group 
Niemberger
> > Gruppe and Theune wrote that the Thuringian ethnogenesis took 
place
> > on the basis of this Niemberger Gruppe around 400 AD. Theune 
states
> > that further horse nomadic and East Germanic influences arrived 
in
> > the course of the 5th century.
> > 
> > Interestingly, in her study Grahn-Hoek had linked the Thuringi 
with
> > the Terwingi of Athanaric. Among others, she had stated that the
> > Burgundian royal family was descended from Athanaric, the 
> Terwingian
> > judge. Grahn-Hoek argued that such a family link would be much 
more
> > feasible if remnants of Athanaric's family had moved much 
further 
> to
> > the west to Thuringia than the usual settlements in Rumania. 
> Indeed,
> > Springer reiterates that early sources usually mention 
Thuringians
> > and Burgundians side-by-side. He does not refer to the link with
> > Athanaric, but Springer notes that the Thuringian castle 
Giebichen-
> > stein might be named after the royal house of the Burgundians, 
the
> > Giebichungen.
> > 
> > In his article "Terwingen" in the RGA, G. Kampers mentions an
> > alternative name link, which was also discussed by Grahn-Hoek.
> > Kampers states that the T(h)yringi (which is one of the name 
forms
> > for Thuringi) could be the name of the Terwingi who lived at the
> > Tyrus river (i.e. the later Dnestr). Such a name form would be
> > analogue to the Tanaites, i.e. the Alan who lived at the Tanais 
> river
> > (Don).
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > 
> > Dirk
> 
> Ualarauans
>






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