I haven't seen you since we crossed the Danube...

[Grsartor at AOL.COM]

Hi, All. About the meaning of duþe, and its possible use as a translation of "since".

The word seems to mean "for this or that reason", "therefore". Examples:

Matt 6:25 duþþe qiþa izwis: ni maurnaiþ saiwalai izwarai
therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life

Mark 1:38 unte duþe qam.
for that is why I came out

Luke 14:20 duþe ni mag qiman
therefore I cannot come

Matt 27:8 duþþe haitans warþ akrs jains akrs bloþis und hina dag
therefore that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day

(Note the Gothic use of the preterite where the English translation uses a perfect with present sense.)

The combination duþe ei has the meaning "since", but so far as I have been able to make out only in its sense of "because" rather than "after". Examples:

Luke 1:13 duþe ei andhausida ist bida þeina
for your prayer is heard

Luke 1:20 duþe ei ni galaubides waurdam meinaim
because you did not believe my words

Of course, it is only a small step from "after" to "because" (post hoc ergo propter hoc), but I can produce no examples from Gothic to justify duþe in the sense of since = after.
 
Gerry T.

 


 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: OSCAR HERRE <duke.co at sbcglobal.net>
To: gothic-l at yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 4:19
Subject: Re: [gothic-l] I haven't seen you since we crossed the Danube...


isnt duthe the word for since......pretty sure it is....

--- On Sun, 9/19/10, Grsartor at aol.com <Grsartor at aol.com> wrote:


From: Grsartor at aol.com <Grsartor at aol.com>
Subject: Re: [gothic-l] I haven't seen you since we crossed the Danube...
To: gothic-l at yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, September 19, 2010, 2:33 PM


  



Hi, All.

About how to say "since" in Gothic: as no-one else has replied, I offer a few 
remarks in the hope that others with greater knowledge may be prompted to 
answer, if only to put right whatever mistakes I make.

What we really ought to do is see whether the available texts give us any 
examples of how Gothic coped. I do not know whether such exist, and in this 
state of unblissful ignorance offer the following.

First, we have to distinguish between different uses of the word in question:

(1) as an adverb, eg "he had breakfast but has not eaten since".

(2) as a preposition, eg. "he has eaten nothing since breakfast".

(3) as a conjunction, eg "he has eaten nothing since he had breakfast".

There is also the question of what tense we should use. In a previous message I 
said that it seems Gothic regularly used the preterite where English uses a 
perfect, even when this perfect indicates a persisting state, and might well be 
expressed by a present in other tongues than English (eg, he has been here for 
three hours). If this is right, then it might be reasonable to express "since" 
by "after". My second and third example sentences could then become:

(2) waiht ni matida afar undaurnimat.

(3) waiht ni matida afar þatei matida undaurnimat. A similar construction is 
actually attested in Gothic: Afar þatei atgibans was Iohannes (Mark 1:14)

As for the adverbial use of "since", or "after", it might be reasonable to 
render the first sentence as:

(1) matida undaurnimat iþ waiht ni matida afar þata. This construction is at any 
rate paralleled in the surviving Gothic: Afar þata galaiþ Iesus (John 6:1)

A shortcoming of this way of coping with how to express "since" is that there 
would be no distinction between the following:

(A) He did not smoke a cigar after breakfast.

(B) He has not smoked a cigar since breakfast.

In favour of the suggested use of "fram" for expressing "since" there is the 
Gothic idiom "fram himma nu", which was used to mean "from now on".

I hope these remarks, if not specially useful, may spur others into offering 
their help.

Gerry T.

-----Original Message-----
From: Claire Knudsen-Latta <clairemargery at gmail.com>
To: gothic-l at yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 18:39
Subject: [gothic-l] I haven't seen you since we crossed the Danube...

Ik ni gesahw þuk fram donaujai.

I'm having trouble with the last bit of the translation, would _fram_ be the
correct preposition? And, do I need to include the "we crossed" bit or
could that be implied?

Thanks,
Claire

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