Plato the Sophist in Gothic

Sun Jul 13 18:14:39 UTC 2014

Roel,

A few words on word-order:
In your foregoing post, you said that you would be following a SOV order in your translation, and then in the second, that you would be following the word-order of Modern German. I have misgivings that either of these two patterns were the unmarked order of elements in Wulfilian Gothic.

As to the SOV order: It is generally agreed among historical linguistics that the unmarked order of elements in Proto-Indo-European was SOV, one that is in fact apparent in such ancient IE languages as Hittite, Sanskrit, Old Latin, and even the later Tocharian languages. That said, it is also fairly clear that a number of the early IE languages were already in the process of shifting from SOV to SVO languages. While Old Latin was clearly SOV, an order still preserved generally in formal written Classical Latin, such everyday texts as the Vindolanda letters, however, suggest that in common spoken Latin, SVO was already the norm by circa 150 AD, and that there was a STYLISTIC difference in Latin between the two patterns (as there still is in Modern English as well: prosaic "even if it's in the centre" could become, as the poet Donne writes, "though it in the centre sit", and many such examples can be found in traditional English poetry). Likewise, the very
 few scraps of ancient Gaulish arguably show SVO order. Biblical Greek appears to have SVO as the unmarked order as well. And, more importantly, statistical analysis of word-order in Old English, Old Norse, and Old High German suggest that the unmarked order was likewise SVO. (Of course, even in all the modern IE languages, elements may be shifted about, and this was doubly so in their more ancient counterparts.) This broad comparative view would suggest then that Gothic more likely was at bottom a SVO language rather than a SOV one, but that there existed considerable leeway in departing from this order in order to emphasize given elements.

As to the Modern German word-order: It should be noted that the strict use of the so-called frame-construction in Modern German is a later development: Old High German shows much great variability than its modern counterpart. Thus, there is little reason to regard this frame-construction as essentially ancient and consequently fitting for Wulfilian Gothic.

It should also be borne in mind that we do not know what version of the Greek Bible Wulfila used in translating; the Greek text in Streitberg's edition is a confection: Streitberg's methodology was circular: the Gothic translation is assumed to be slavish to the Greek Vorlage, so the original Greek Vorlage, which does not survive, can be reconstructed from the Gothic, which shows that Gothic slavishly followed the Greek Vorlage in word-order. And so his Greek Vorlage is made up from different versions, the choice determined by the Gothic translation. Strictly speaking then, the Gothic Bible can give little secure insight into Gothic word-order, since we do not know how idiomatic or natural it would have sounded to a native speaker of Gothic, nor can we be certain at what points the translator did in fact depart from the original, since we do not have the original version.

While word-order in early Germanic remains a debated topic, I would suggest the following few basic principles as likely for Wulfilian Gothic based on comparative evidence and modern theoretical studies in discourse analysis:

1) the basic UNMARKED order is SVO:

e.g. "jah ni mahta gawagjan ita" (L6,48) (lit., 'and could not shake it')

compare the Kjolevik stone runic inscription (first half of the first millennium AD), normalized here: "ek Hagustaldaz hlaiwido magu minino" (lit., 'I Hagustaldaz buried son mine') - the language here is Northwest Germanic.

2) in order to emphasis a S, it is shifted to the right, how far to the right being dependent on how much emphasis is desired (highlighted elements marked by capital letters here):

e.g. "kann meina, jah kunnun mik THO MEINA (J10,14) ('I know mine, and MINE know me')

compare OHG "uuard imo ginemnit NAMO HEILANT" (Tatian's life of Christ) (lit., 'was for him named THE NAME SAVIOUR' instead of the presumably unmarked order *namo Heilant uuard imo ginemnit 'the name of Saviour was given to him as a name')

3) In order to emphasis an O, it is shifted to the left, how far to the left being dependent on how much emphasis is desired.

"ARMAHAIRTITHA wiljau jah ni hunsl (Mt9,13) ('MERCY I desire and not sacrifice')

compare the Gallehus horn runic inscription (first half of the first millennium AD), normalized here: "Ek Hlewagastiz Holtijaz horna tawido" (lit., 'I Hlewagastiz son of Holtaz (THIS) HORN made')

These basic principles are still to a certain extent valid for the Modern Germanic Languages, and I will give a few examples from Modern English:

To emphasis a subject by shifting rightwards (most often accompanied by expletive-'there'):

e.g.  'There had come into the city a few days later ONE OF THE MOST BIZARRE CHARACTERS EVER SEEN IN THOSE PARTS.'

To emphasis an object or other complement by shifting leftwards:

e.g.  'SUCH A THING he would never have said.'

This of course only skims the surface of the topic, but these basic principles seem to be clearly operative in the early Germanic languages and arguably would seem to be valid for Gothic given its genetic relationship. In the absence of more solid evidence, it seems best to imitate the oldest forms of Germanic extant rather than the modern reflexes.

Finally, you invited feedback on your Plato translation. It would be helpful if you could provide a reference to the passage in the original so that those wishing to give feedback could first compare the original with your rendering.

Edmund

--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 7/12/14, roellingua at gmail.com [gothic-l] <gothic-l at yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 Subject: [gothic-l] Plato the Sophist in Gothic
 To: gothic-l at yahoogroups.com
 Received: Saturday, July 12, 2014, 5:04 PM

       Hello there, I have improved my Gothic
 a lot since some of my posts and I 'm currently trying,
 with what we know of native Gothic syntax and with the word
 order of modern German (as that was one word order which
 could be used in old Gothic) to translate this book in
 Gothic. The best aspect of it is because it was written in a
 time before the Goths and not in modern times, you can find
 most words in dictionary. This is what I got until now, it
 is reconstructed Gothic, if you see any mistakes, please
 tell me:
 Sijum hēr,
 Sokrates, swē þast fairnái daga, jah attiuham gasts fram
 Eleái hidre, saei siponeis Parmenidis jah Zenau ist, jah
 þagkja pistkeins. 
 Sokrates: Nist guþ mais þau manna, Teodorus? Saei
 qimiþ du unsis huljans swē gasts? Untē Homer qiþiþ ei
 guþa allái jah þis-hun guþ gaste sind ga-sinþas manne
 hnaiwe jah manne goþe, jah qimiþ at mannáim guþáim jah
 mannáim ubilaim. Jah ni sijai ga-sinþa þeins sums mahtē
 hauhē, guþ, saei qimands du bigitan un-mahts in
 in-sahtái, jah du us-sukjan unsis? 
 Theod: Ni, Sokrates, manna soks nist - ist ufar goþs
 fáur þamma. Jah, jah muna, ni allis ist guþ, ak gudisk
 ist, untē ita ist ufar-meli saei giba du alláim þáim
 sind þagkjas. 
 Soc: Goþs abraba, frijonds meins! Jah wiljau
 ana-áukan ni halis sind swē guþa. Untē þagkjas
 pistkeinái, at-augjand sik in laudis missa-leikái ni
 ga-kunnands þáirh manna,
 jah "thliuhand ufar baurgim" swaswē
 Homerus ga-kanneiþ, saiƕans fram himina ana libainai mann;
 jah sum þagkjand ni waiht....

 #yiv0534792101 #yiv0534792101 --
   #yiv0534792101ygrp-mkp {
 border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
 0;padding:0 10px;}

 #yiv0534792101 #yiv0534792101ygrp-mkp hr {
 border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

 #yiv0534792101 #yiv0534792101ygrp-mkp #yiv0534792101hd {
 color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
 0;}

 #yiv0534792101 #yiv0534792101ygrp-mkp #yiv0534792101ads {
 margin-bottom:10px;}

 #yiv0534792101 #yiv0534792101ygrp-mkp .yiv0534792101ad {
 padding:0 0;}

 #yiv0534792101 #yiv0534792101ygrp-mkp .yiv0534792101ad p {
 margin:0;}

 #yiv0534792101 #yiv0534792101ygrp-mkp .yiv0534792101ad a {
 color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
 #yiv0534792101 #yiv0534792101ygrp-sponsor
 #yiv0534792101ygrp-lc {
 font-family:Arial;}

 #yiv0534792101 #yiv0534792101ygrp-sponsor
 #yiv0534792101ygrp-lc #yiv0534792101hd {
 margin:10px
 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

 #yiv0534792101 #yiv0534792101ygrp-sponsor
 #yiv0534792101ygrp-lc .yiv0534792101ad {
 margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

 #yiv0534792101 #yiv0534792101actions {
 font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

 #yiv0534792101 #yiv0534792101activity {
 background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

 #yiv0534792101 #yiv0534792101activity span {
 font-weight:700;}

 #yiv0534792101 #yiv0534792101activity span:first-child {
 text-transform:uppercase;}

 #yiv0534792101 #yiv0534792101activity span a {
 color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

 #yiv0534792101 #yiv0534792101activity span span {
 color:#ff7900;}

 #yiv0534792101 #yiv0534792101activity span
 .yiv0534792101underline {
 text-decoration:underline;}

 #yiv0534792101 .yiv0534792101attach {
 clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
 0;width:400px;}

 #yiv0534792101 .yiv0534792101attach div a {
 text-decoration:none;}

 #yiv0534792101 .yiv0534792101attach img {
 border:none;padding-right:5px;}

 #yiv0534792101 .yiv0534792101attach label {
 display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

 #yiv0534792101 .yiv0534792101attach label a {
 text-decoration:none;}

 #yiv0534792101 blockquote {
 margin:0 0 0 4px;}

 #yiv0534792101 .yiv0534792101bold {
 font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

 #yiv0534792101 .yiv0534792101bold a {
 text-decoration:none;}

 #yiv0534792101 dd.yiv0534792101last p a {
 font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

 #yiv0534792101 dd.yiv0534792101last p span {
 margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

 #yiv0534792101 dd.yiv0534792101last p
 span.yiv0534792101yshortcuts {
 margin-right:0;}

 #yiv0534792101 div.yiv0534792101attach-table div div a {
 text-decoration:none;}

 #yiv0534792101 div.yiv0534792101attach-table {
 width:400px;}

 #yiv0534792101 div.yiv0534792101file-title a, #yiv0534792101
 div.yiv0534792101file-title a:active, #yiv0534792101
 div.yiv0534792101file-title a:hover, #yiv0534792101
 div.yiv0534792101file-title a:visited {
 text-decoration:none;}

 #yiv0534792101 div.yiv0534792101photo-title a,
 #yiv0534792101 div.yiv0534792101photo-title a:active,
 #yiv0534792101 div.yiv0534792101photo-title a:hover,
 #yiv0534792101 div.yiv0534792101photo-title a:visited {
 text-decoration:none;}

 #yiv0534792101 div#yiv0534792101ygrp-mlmsg
 #yiv0534792101ygrp-msg p a span.yiv0534792101yshortcuts {
 font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

 #yiv0534792101 .yiv0534792101green {
 color:#628c2a;}

 #yiv0534792101 .yiv0534792101MsoNormal {
 margin:0 0 0 0;}

 #yiv0534792101 o {
 font-size:0;}

 #yiv0534792101 #yiv0534792101photos div {
 float:left;width:72px;}

 #yiv0534792101 #yiv0534792101photos div div {
 border:1px solid
 #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

 #yiv0534792101 #yiv0534792101photos div label {
 color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

 #yiv0534792101 #yiv0534792101reco-category {
 font-size:77%;}

 #yiv0534792101 #yiv0534792101reco-desc {
 font-size:77%;}

 #yiv0534792101 .yiv0534792101replbq {
 margin:4px;}

 #yiv0534792101 #yiv0534792101ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
 margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

 #yiv0534792101 #yiv0534792101ygrp-mlmsg {
 font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
 sans-serif;}

 #yiv0534792101 #yiv0534792101ygrp-mlmsg table {
 font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

 #yiv0534792101 #yiv0534792101ygrp-mlmsg select,
 #yiv0534792101 input, #yiv0534792101 textarea {
 font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

 #yiv0534792101 #yiv0534792101ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv0534792101
 code {
 font:115% monospace;}

 #yiv0534792101 #yiv0534792101ygrp-mlmsg * {
 line-height:1.22em;}

 #yiv0534792101 #yiv0534792101ygrp-mlmsg #yiv0534792101logo {
 padding-bottom:10px;}

 #yiv0534792101 #yiv0534792101ygrp-msg p a {
 font-family:Verdana;}

 #yiv0534792101 #yiv0534792101ygrp-msg
 p#yiv0534792101attach-count span {
 color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

 #yiv0534792101 #yiv0534792101ygrp-reco
 #yiv0534792101reco-head {
 color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

 #yiv0534792101 #yiv0534792101ygrp-reco {
 margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

 #yiv0534792101 #yiv0534792101ygrp-sponsor #yiv0534792101ov
 li a {
 font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

 #yiv0534792101 #yiv0534792101ygrp-sponsor #yiv0534792101ov
 li {
 font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

 #yiv0534792101 #yiv0534792101ygrp-sponsor #yiv0534792101ov
 ul {
 margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

 #yiv0534792101 #yiv0534792101ygrp-text {
 font-family:Georgia;}

 #yiv0534792101 #yiv0534792101ygrp-text p {
 margin:0 0 1em 0;}

 #yiv0534792101 #yiv0534792101ygrp-text tt {
 font-size:120%;}

 #yiv0534792101 #yiv0534792101ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
 border-right:none !important;
 }
 #yiv0534792101 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/gothic-l/attachments/20140713/41fa626a/attachment.htm>