[gothic-l] Gothic Language Corner - Giant Addendum

Mon Mar 2 21:34:18 UTC 2015

Dear Gerry, 

 A further addendum. It would appear that you did indeed read somewhere that "the Norse 'risi' suggested size, 'joetunn' strength, and 'thurs' stupidity." Cleasby-Vigfusson's >Icelandic-English Dictionary< (p. 498) gives the following:

 "In popular Icel. usage risi denotes size, jotunn strength, thurs lack of intelligence."

 Cleasby-Vigfusson note further, however, that the word risi "is very popular (even more so than jotunn) in modern tales, but is only found once (in the compound berg-risi) in old poems."

 To what extent Modern Icelandic usage reflects that two millennia ago is very uncertain; the latter comment from Cleasby-Vigfusson suggests that the modern distinction may not have held in Old Norse.

 In Old English, the words 'ent' and 'gigant' are the common terms, while 'eoten' is restricted to poetry, and 'thyrs' is not common.

 As to etymology, Cleasby-Vigfusson also note that the alternative form of 'risi,' namely 'vrisi,' shows that "the word has no connection with the verb risa, and the root is unknown.'

 Edmund

---In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, <edmundfairfax at ...> wrote :

 Dear Gerry, 

 The reconstructed *thauris (masc. a-stem) would decline like any other masc. a-stem noun: sa thauris, this thaurisis, thamma thaurisa, thana thauris; thai thaurisos, thize thaurise, thaim thaurisam, thans thaurisans.

 As to the etymology of *wrisja:
 Orel's >Handbook of Germanic Etymology<  and the Duden >Herkunftswoerterbuch< suggest a connection with Greek 'rhion' (< *wrison) 'peak, headland' -- giants are in fact associated with mountains in Nordic tradition. 

 As to the etymology of *thurisaz:
 In his >Etymological Dictionary of Germanic< Kroonen states "no clear etymology. The standard connection with ON thyrja 'to rush' < *thurjan- is formally possible, but semantically uncompelling. Perhaps rather related to Icel. thursi m. 'quarrel, anger, rage.'" Orel suggests a source in *thurenanan 'to dare.'

 As to the eytmology of *etunaz (the source of ON jotunn, OE eoten):
 the common view is that it is from *etanan 'to eat.'

 Edmund

---In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, <Grsartor at ...> wrote :

 About the differences in sense between the words for a giant: I read somewhere that, if I recall it right, the Norse "risi" suggested size, "joetunn" strength, and "thurs" stupidity. I also think I read somewhere that the first of these was related to the English verb "rise", or Norse "risa". But if the original form is something like "wrisja" this is presumably not so.

 One last thing, a question from someone that does not know how to reconstruct original forms of Germanic words, or any other for that matter: if "thauris" is an a-stem, how is it declined, e.g., what is the genitive?

 Gerry T.

 In a message dated 02/03/2015 03:08:00 GMT Standard Time, gothic-l at yahoogroups.com writes:

 In one of my earlier posts, I attempted to reconstruct the word for 'giant' in Gothic. There was an error in the reconstruction, and the following then is meant as a correction.

 Based on the cognates OE 'thyrs,' ON 'thurs,' and OHG 'dhuris,' together with the Latinized Gothic name 'Thorismundus' (= *Thaurismunds), the late Proto-Germanic form would have been *'thur(i)saz,' and the expected Gothic form *'thauris' (masc a-stem).

 There was, however, more than one term for 'giant' in Germanic. ON 'risi,' OHG 'riso' (> ModG 'Riese') and OS 'wrisi-lik' 'enormous' suggest a proto-form *'wrisjan' (masc. n-stem) 'giant.' A Hellenized Gothic name found in Procopius (BG 3,35), to wit, 'Rhisioulphos' (= *Wrisjawulfs) suggests that the reflex of this second term was also known in Gothic, namely, *'wrisja' (masc. n-stem).

 How these - and a few other - Germanic terms differed in meaning, if at all, is hard to say.

 It might noted further here that while we tend to think of giants as invariably huge, monstrously big, the giants of the ancient north appear to have been a far more variable race. Saxo Grammaticus (1, 13) relates a story of a king named Gram, who "impersonated a giant," thus: "he put on goat-skins to intimidate anyone who appeared in his path" and was "accoutred thus in an assortment of animal hides, with a terrifying club in his right hand."

 We hear later (1, 21) of his son Hading, who attracted the amorous attention of a giantess:

 "When he pointed out that the size of her body was unwieldy for human embraces and the way she was built undoubtedly suggested that she came from giant stock, she replied:
 'Don't let the si ght of my strange largeness affect you. I can make the substance of my body small or great, now thin, now capacious. Sometimes I shrivel at will, sometimes expand. At one moment my stature reaches the skies, at another I can gather myself into the narrower proportions of men.'"

 The Eddas also speak of the gods mating with giants. It would appear then that size alone was not the main distinguishing feature of ancient Nordic giants, if Saxo and the Eddas are truly representative of earlier beliefs: a frightening strange "wild-man" aspect and capricious variability in size appear to have been significant, if not the main, features of these creatures.

 Edmund

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