Word order in phrases - J'y suis pour
Rémy Viredaz
remy.viredaz at bluewin.ch
Sun Dec 15 23:26:06 UTC 2013
Hello,
Although I've never heard "J'y suis pour", I think it means "I'm just about
to do it" (or even "I've already begun to do it", but perhaps only as an
hyperbole). I have heard (in a movie, perhaps) the construction "il va pour
+ infinitive" in the meaning "il s'apprête à". Perhaps there is a variant
"il est pour ..." in the same meaning, hence in the first person "J'y suis
pour", where "y" will be the anaphoric representing the infinitive of the
preceding sentence (said by the customer). I'm not sure because "il va
pour..", "il est pour..." are not used here in Switzerland (in this
meaning). And it would be important to know whether the phrase was heard in
France or in Quebec, where they tend to borrow English syntax.
As for the other examples:
"Il lui a couru après" is for me the normal way to say it ("il a couru après
lui" is possible but not usual)
"T'as pas travaillé pour" ("n'" would no longer be used nowadays) is not
usual, but there is the phrase "C'est étudié pour" (C'est e'tudie' pour) in
a famous comical sketch of the mid 20th century ("That's designed for that",
i.e. for that purpose).
The grammatical construction (I'm not speaking of the content) in "Les
femmes qu'il a couché avec" sounds very low-level (populaire), but on the
other hand, "Les femmes avec lesquelles il a couché" sounds a bit
high-nosed; this is the correct or standard construction in writing, but it
is not usual in colloquial speech.
As you Paolo remark, "avec" and "après" are adverbs and not only
prepositions.
English influence is totally unlikely in all these examples.
Now I'm not a specialist in French, just an informant among others, so to
speak.
Best,
Rémy Viredaz, Geneva
remy.viredaz at bluewin.ch
Le 15.12.13 23:03, « histling-l-request at mailman.rice.edu »
<histling-l-request at mailman.rice.edu> a écrit :
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: FW: Borrowed word order in phrases (Paolo Ramat)
> 2. FW: Borrowed word order in phrases (Marie-Lucie Tarpent)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 19:21:18 +0100
> From: "Paolo Ramat" <paoram at unipv.it>
> Subject: Re: [Histling-l] FW: Borrowed word order in phrases
> To: "Roger Lass" <lass at iafrica.com>, <histling-l at mailman.rice.edu>
> Cc: paolo.ramat at unipv.it
> Message-ID: <A0C7D95143724EC68EEA965AD7B37AED at PaoloPC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8";
> reply-type=original
>
> Very interesting discussion!
> Point 1.: "J'y suis pour", presumably "that's what I'm here for" (Paul
> Hopper, 15 XII '13). Impossible in Italian:**Io sono per (perhaps
> acceptable: ??'Io sono pro', as answer to a question such as 'Sei pro o
> contro/contra ?', whereby *pro* is not an Ital. preposition, but a
> latinism -as *contra* !)
> Point 2.: I think Roger Lass is right when he writes (15 XII '13) "Unless
> one would like to think of this as an early mediaeval Anglo-French borrowing
> (the last time there was extensive contact between English and French),
> imported into Continental French (and not Norman, but Isle de la Cite, and
> transferred from less prestigious to more prestigious dialect-areas)." The
> postposition of *avec* is quite usual in Mod. colloquial French, not only in
> Canada, and it is plausible that "[t]he origin of the preposition-last
> construction in "popular" (= uneducated) speech rules out r e c e n
> t [my emphasis] calques from English, and is more likely to be found in
> extensions of popular syntax"(M.-L. Tarpent; cp. Hopper: "This is a very
> common structure in uneducated speech, with "que" used as a single,
> ubiquitous relative pronoun for functions other than Subject).
> As a metter of fact, we find already in mdiaeval French *Dont m'en porteras
> tu avoec * 'Alors tu m'emportera avec' (Le jeu de St. Nicolas , Jehan Bodel
> 1201), not possible in Ital.: **"Allora tu mi porterai con". The so-called
> Preposition stranding (1) is rare in Italian: 'je lui ai couru apr?s' ?I
> ran after him?(ex. of P.Hopper) = Ital. "gli sono corso dietro" is OK, but
> not **"tu non hai lavorato per" as transl. of 'tu n?as pas travaill? pour'
> "You didn't work for it".
> Already OFr. "...qu'otot le cheval l'a mis jus" ( Partenopeu de Blois), lit.
> ...that all the horse has put down, i.e. "...qu'il l'a abattu avec son
> cheval" . This could hardly be translated into Italian with "...che lo ha
> buttato gi? col suo cavallo".
> The 'preposition stranding' (not only of *avec*!: see *apr?s*, etc.) could
> be another example of Germanic influence on French and other Rom. languages
> (see, e.g. ON. Eirikr hinn Raidhi 'Erik the Red' , OHG. kuningin thia richun
> (Otfr. I 3.31)'the mighty queen', Lorenzo il Magnifico, and
> Karl der Grosse vs. the Romance type Charlemagne: but this is another story
> which, however, could be an answer to Eduardo's question concerning
> borrowed word orders compared to a more common, inherited type).
>
> (1) Properly speaking, *avec* (< Lat. apud hoc) is not a preposition but an
> adverbial which can occur with a verb (e.g. je viens avec), as well as with
> a noun -assuming in this second case the function of a PREP: avec mon
> couteau (?? mon couteau avec) 'with my knife'.
>
> Best season's greetings to anyone of the histling!
> Paolo Ramat
>
> Prof.Paolo Ramat
> Universit? di Pavia
> Istituto Universitario di Studi Superiori (IUSS Pavia)
>
> -----Messaggio originale-----
> From: Roger Lass
> Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2013 2:46 PM
> To: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu
> Subject: [Histling-l] FW: Borrowed word order in phrases
>
>
> -----Original Message (restaured) -----
> From: histling-l-bounces at mailman.rice.edu
> [mailto:histling-l-bounces at mailman.rice.edu] On Behalf Of Roger Lass
> Sent: 15 December 2013 03:23 PM
> To: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu
> Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases
>
>
> One might note that preposition stranding isn't typical (though I have been
> told by a distinguished native speaking syntactician that it can occur in
> Dutch) of the Germanic languages with OV order in subordinate clauses
> (i.e. Continental West Germanic), but of those with VO, which means
> essentially English and North Germanic. Syntactic borrowing from any of the
> Germanic languages where stranding is characteristic seems odd in Parisian
> French, where there is no contact situation of the type that would conduce
> to syntactic borrowing. Unless one would like to think of this as an early
> mediaeval Anglo-French borrowing (the last time there was extensive contact
> between English and French), imported into Continental French (and not
> Norman, but Isle de la Cite, and transferred from less prestigious to more
> prestigious dialect-areas). I'm not a Romanist but considering the
> increasing isolation of Anglo-French from Continental French during the
> Middle Ages, any transfer from English would seem very peculiar. North
> Germanic is out of the question of course.
> RL
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: histling-l-bounces at mailman.rice.edu
> [mailto:histling-l-bounces at mailman.rice.edu] On Behalf Of Paul Hopper
> Sent: 15 December 2013 02:47 PM
> To: Peter Hook
> Cc: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; lista
> Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases
>
> The following examples are from Henri Bauche's book Le langage populaire.
> Grammaire, syntaxe et dictionnaire du français tel qu?on le parle dans
> le peuple de Paris, avec tous les termes d?argot usuel. Paris: Payot, 1928.
>
> les femmes qu?il a couch? avec ?the women he?s slept with?
> je lui ai couru apr?s ?I ran after him?
> tu n?as pas travaill? pour "You didn't work for it"
>
> A few years ago Geoff Nathan (perhaps on HistLing) reported a waiter as
> saying "J'y suis pour", presumably "that's what I'm here for".
>
> Bauche comments that these forms are often attributed to a Germanic
> substratum, but says they are also found in Italian. True?
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> Hi Eduardo,
>>
>> An example of a stranded preposition in French [but no idea of where
>> the writer is from]:
>>
>> www.leforum.bistrophilo.fr/.../viewtopic.php?f...t...
>> Mar 3, 2009 - 10 posts - 6 authors
>> Mmmm c'est d?licieux ; on la mettait de c?t? et ? la fin de la semaine
>> il y en avait assez *pour faire une tarte avec* !
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Peter Hook
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:59 AM, Koka <lachicadelgorro at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Eduardo,
>>>
>>> A recent account of the word order "Nada s?" (as opposed to "No s?
>>> nada")
>>> in Spanish by Octavio de Toledo attributes this word order to Latin
>>> influence. You can check the paper (in Spanish) out here (
>>>
> https://www.academia.edu/2552836/Entre_gramaticalizacion_estructura_informat
> iva_y_tradiciones_discursivas_algo_mas_sobre_nada_).
>>>
>>>
>>> Hope it helps!
>>>
>>> Carlota
>>>
>>>> Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 01:09:15 -0500
>>>> From: kariri at gmail.com
>>>> To: etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br;
>>>> histling-l at mailman.rice.edu;
>>> LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org
>>>> Subject: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases
>>>
>>>>
>>>> [apologies for cross-posting]
>>>>
>>>> Dear colleagues,
>>>>
>>>> I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of)
>>>> phrases present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a
>>>> more common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English,
>>>> legal terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the
>>>> original Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc.
>>>> (Jespersen 1912:87-88).
>>>>
>>>> Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of
>>>> cases in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed
>>>> lexemes, ended up becoming the default usage?
>>>>
>>>> I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on
>>>> this
>>> topic.
>>>>
>>>> Obrigado,
>>>>
>>>> Eduardo
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, ling?ista
>>>> http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Histling-l mailing list
>>>> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu
>>>> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Histling-l mailing list
>>> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu
>>> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Histling-l mailing list
>> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu
>> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l
>>
>
>
> --
> Paul J. Hopper,
> Paul Mellon Distinguished Professor of Humanities Emeritus, Department of
> English, Dietrich College of Humanities and Social Sciences, Carnegie Mellon
> University, Pittsburgh, PA 15213,
>
> Adjunct Professor of Linguistics,
> University of Pittsburgh
>
> Senior External Fellow,
> School of Linguistics and Literature,
> Freiburg Institute for Advanced Studies (FRIAS), Freiburg i.Br., Germany
>
> Publications: <http://carnegie-mellon.academia.edu/PaulHopper>
> <http://scholar.google.com/citations?hl=en&user=n2e7ANUAAAAJ
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Histling-l mailing list
> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu
> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> Histling-l mailing list
> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu
> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> Histling-l mailing list
> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu
> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 18:03:16 -0400
> From: Marie-Lucie Tarpent <mltarpent at hotmail.com>
> Subject: [Histling-l] FW: Borrowed word order in phrases
> To: <paoram at unipv.it>, <etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.br>,
> <histling-l at mailman.rice.edu>
> Message-ID: <BAY171-W36591D92A5ADB034760C36A6D90 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> Dr Ramat,
>
> Thank you for your comments on my answer to Paul Hopper. Geoffrey Nathan sent
> a subsequent email and I responded, but I did not mean to send it to him
> alone, so below I am forwarding my exchange with him.
>
> I am glad to learn the origin of "avec", which I did not know.
>
> m-l
>
>
>
> From: mltarpent at hotmail.com
> To: geoffnathan at wayne.edu
> Subject: RE: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases
> Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 13:26:35 -0400
>
>
>
>
> Thank you, Geoff Nathan!
>
> "Je suis l? pour" sounds much more authentic than the previously reported "J'y
> suis pour", where "y" would refer to a known location, or at least of
> something previously mentioned or understood. I have no doubt that you
> reported the sentence correctly, since I have must have heard the structure
> many times in France, with various Subject pronouns.
>
> Your waiter would not have needed to know English to adopt a widespread phrase
> modelled on English structure, but as examples accumulate I think that at
> least here the preposition-last structure here is not a case of
> preposition-stranding on the English model but more generally a case of
> omission of final ?A, not only in
>
> - Je suis l? pour (?a)! 'That's what I am here for!'
>
> but for instance in
>
> - Les films japonais, j'adore! 'I love Japanese movies!'
>
> where the Object is at least understood if not actually stated as Topic. In
> my youth such sentences sounded pretentious. They were (at least in my
> experience) associated with a certain type of upper- or almost-upper-class
> young women, but they must have become more widespread, rejoining the "popular
> speech" examples quoted by Paul Hopper.
>
> The omission of ?A 'that, it' may be due to the fact that it still has a
> negative connotation. As a "popular" abbreviation of CELA - still used by
> only in a high register - it was long frowned upon even in speech. I hardly
> ever use "cela" except if I need to adopt a formal tone (such as in academic
> writing), but for instance when Le Monde translates "X (number of) readers
> recommend this" as "X lecteurs recommandent ?a", "?a" here sounds to me as
> inappropriately derogatory, not neutral like English "this". But my point of
> view is probably very old-fashioned (I am retired).
>
> Going back to:
>
> - Je suis l? pour (?a)! 'That's what I am here for!'
>
> what about the (recent?) "that's-less" structure in English:
>
> - X (writes a comment on a blog).
> - Y (commenting on X's comment): What X said! (= I agree, I could have said
> the same thing).
>
> marie-lucie
>
>
>
> Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 11:17:26 -0500
> From: geoffnathan at wayne.edu
> To: mltarpent at hotmail.com
> CC: hopper at cmu.edu; histling-l at mailman.rice.edu
> Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases
>
> As the person reporting the stranded preposition to this list several years
> ago, let me clarify.
>
> We were having dinner in a medium-sized provincial town in central France
> about fifteen or so years ago when Margaret (Winters--some of you know her..)
> asked the waiter:
>
> Si je peux vous poser une question?
>
> The waiter replied:
>
> Je suis l? pour.
>
> I would judge it very unlikely that the waiter was fluent in English, and
> Margaret's French doesn't sound non-native (just vaguely 'not from around
> here...'). I suspect there are lots of these in colloquial contemporary French
> (fran?ais avanc? as they like to say...)
>
> Geoff
>
> Geoffrey S. Nathan
> Faculty Liaison, C&IT
> and Professor, Linguistics Program
> http://blogs.wayne.edu/proftech/
> +1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT)
>
> Nobody at Wayne State will EVER ask you for your password. Never send it to
> anyone in an email, no matter how authentic the email looks.
>
>
> From: "Marie-Lucie Tarpent" <mltarpent at hotmail.com>
> To: hopper at cmu.edu, etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br,
> histling-l at mailman.rice.edu
> Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2013 10:59:37 AM
> Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases
>
>
>
>
> Paul Hopper:
>
> About Bauche's examples:
>
> (1) les femmes qu'il a couch? avec 'the women he slept with' (= ... that he
> slept with)
>
> This is a very common structure in uneducated speech, with "que" used as a
> single, ubiquitous relative pronoun for functions other than Subject. The
> formal equivalent "les femmes avec lesquelles il a couch?" is not only much
> more difficult to use (because of the gender/number agreement) but similar in
> tone and register to English "the women with whom he slept" (itself a calque
> of French). An intermediate form would be "les femmes avec qui il a couch?",
> common in casual educated speech but frowned upon by purists, especially in
> writing.
>
> (2) je lui ai couru apr?s 'I ran after him'
>
> Although (1) here was not intended as a context for (2), the French sentence
> immediately called to my mind 'I (a man) chased after her' or 'I (a woman)
> chased after him' (= trying to start a relationship)("lui" as an oblique
> pronoun preceding the verb is the same for both genders). For 'I ran after
> him/her', "j'ai couru apr?s lui/elle" would be less likely to be interpreted
> as above, although possibly so depending on the context.
>
> (3) tu n'as pas travaill? pour 'you didn't work for it'
>
> A person using the preposition-last structure would be unlikely to use "ne ...
> pas" (and this was certainly true in 1928 and much earlier). "T'as pas
> travaill? pour" is more likely, although I am not familiar with this usage of
> "pour". Possibly, it arises from the usage with relative clauses (as in (1)):
> so perhaps
> a) T'as pas travaill? pour ?A. ("?a" here is the topie). 'You didn't work for
> THAT'
> b) C'est pas ?a que t'as travaill? pour. 'THAT is not what you worked for.'
> c) - ... ?A... - T'as pas travaill? pour. (omitting the topic, which was
> mentioned in a previous sentence) 'You didn't work for IT'
>
> The origin of the preposition-last construction in "popular" (= uneducated)
> speech rules out recent calques from English, and is more likely to be found
> in extensions of popular syntax.
>
> As for the next and most recent example:
>
> (4) j'y suis pour
>
> it sounds very strange to me, Unlike the other examples, it is most likely to
> be a literal translation from English '(That's what) I am here for', but
> cross-influenced by the already existing popular structure. (Or the opposite
> could be true).
>
> marie-lucie
>
>> Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 07:46:42 -0500
>> From: hopper at cmu.edu
>> To: peter.e.hook at gmail.com
>> CC: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br
>> Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases
>>
>> The following examples are from Henri Bauche's book Le langage populaire.
>> Grammaire, syntaxe et dictionnaire du français tel qu?on le parle
>> dans le peuple de Paris, avec tous les termes d?argot usuel. Paris: Payot,
>> 1928.
>>
>> les femmes qu?il a couch? avec ?the women he?s slept with?
>> je lui ai couru apr?s ?I ran after him?
>> tu n?as pas travaill? pour "You didn't work for it"
>>
>> A few years ago Geoff Nathan (perhaps on HistLing) reported a waiter as
>> saying "J'y suis pour", presumably "that's what I'm here for".
>>
>> Bauche comments that these forms are often attributed to a Germanic
>> substratum, but says they are also found in Italian. True?
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Hi Eduardo,
>>>
>>> An example of a stranded preposition in French [but no idea of where the
>>> writer is from]:
>>>
>>> www.leforum.bistrophilo.fr/.../viewtopic.php?f...t...
>>> Mar 3, 2009 - 10 posts - 6 authors
>>> Mmmm c'est d?licieux ; on la mettait de c?t? et ? la fin de la semaine il
>>> y
>>> en avait assez *pour faire une tarte avec* !
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Peter Hook
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:59 AM, Koka <lachicadelgorro at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Eduardo,
>>>>
>>>> A recent account of the word order "Nada s?" (as opposed to "No s?
>>>> nada")
>>>> in Spanish by Octavio de Toledo attributes this word order to Latin
>>>> influence. You can check the paper (in Spanish) out here (
>>>> https://www.academia.edu/2552836/Entre_gramaticalizacion_estructura_informa
>>>> tiva_y_tradiciones_discursivas_algo_mas_sobre_nada_).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hope it helps!
>>>>
>>>> Carlota
>>>>
>>>>> Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 01:09:15 -0500
>>>>> From: kariri at gmail.com
>>>>> To: etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br; histling-l at mailman.rice.edu;
>>>> LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org
>>>>> Subject: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [apologies for cross-posting]
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear colleagues,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) phrases
>>>>> present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a more
>>>>> common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, legal
>>>>> terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the original
>>>>> Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc.
>>>>> (Jespersen 1912:87-88).
>>>>>
>>>>> Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of cases
>>>>> in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed lexemes,
>>>>> ended up becoming the default usage?
>>>>>
>>>>> I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on this
>>>> topic.
>>>>>
>>>>> Obrigado,
>>>>>
>>>>> Eduardo
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, ling?ista
>>>>> http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Histling-l mailing list
>>>>> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu
>>>>> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Histling-l mailing list
>>>> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu
>>>> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Histling-l mailing list
>>> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu
>>> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Paul J. Hopper,
>> Paul Mellon Distinguished Professor of Humanities Emeritus,
>> Department of English,
>> Dietrich College of Humanities and Social Sciences,
>> Carnegie Mellon University,
>> Pittsburgh, PA 15213,
>>
>> Adjunct Professor of Linguistics,
>> University of Pittsburgh
>>
>> Senior External Fellow,
>> School of Linguistics and Literature,
>> Freiburg Institute for Advanced Studies (FRIAS),
>> Freiburg i.Br., Germany
>>
>> Publications: <http://carnegie-mellon.academia.edu/PaulHopper>
>> <http://scholar.google.com/citations?hl=en&user=n2e7ANUAAAAJ
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Histling-l mailing list
>> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu
>> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l
>
>
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