Sum: Yakhontov's principle

[Alexander Vovin]

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Larry,

    Hmmm... The following puzzles me:

>Claim 2: If the proportion of phonetic resemblances in the 35-word list
>is higher than the proportion of phonetic resemblances in the 65-word
>list, then this is evidence that the languages are related.

>This second claim I have big problems with.  I myself do not believe
>that phonetic resemblances are of any significance at all in comparative
>linguistics, at least in the absence of a rigorous statistical
>underpinning.  Given the current conspicuous disagreements among the
>linguists working on statistical approaches to comparison, and the plain
>absence of any statistical approach that is generally regarded as valid
>and effective, there can be no such underpinning at present.

    I also have a big problem with this claim, and to the best of my
memory, I do not recollect it to be present in the Iakhontov's handout
that I had before, although he might have added it later. Is that
something more recent?

Sasha

=======================================
Alexander Vovin
Associate Professor of Japanese
Department of East Asian Languages and Literatures
382 Moore Hall
1890 East-West Road
University of Hawaii at Manoa
Honolulu, HI 96822
vovin at hawaii.edu
fax (808)956-9515 (o.)
t.(808)956-6881 (o.)

On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Larry Trask wrote:

> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> The other day I posted a query about a certain principle imputed to
> Yakhontov.  I've received several illuminating responses.
>
> Sergei Yakhontov (or Iakhontov) is a distinguished Russian Sinicist, now
> occupying a chair at St. Petersburg University.  Around 40 years ago, he
> published some classic papers on Old Chinese.  Since then, he has rarely
> published anything at all, and he disseminates his work via lectures,
> mimeographs and personal letters.  But he is alive and well, and one of
> my respondents rang him up.
>
> He has a major interest in the languages of East Asia, and also a big
> interest in Swadesh-style lexicostatistics.  He has attempted to modify
> and improve Swadesh's 100-word list, partly in order to eliminate words
> which he considers too culture-specific to be generally useful, and he's
> devised a modified list with about ten different words.
>
> Further, he has divided his list into two sublists, of 35 and of 65
> words, with the shorter list containing the words he regards as most
> resistant to replacement.  Of these sublists, he has made some claims.
> My respondents cite two very different claims, and I am presuming that
> Yakhontov has in fact espoused both.
>
> Claim 1: If two languages are genetically related, then the proportion
> of cognates in the 35-word list will always be higher than the
> proportion in the 65-word list.
>
> I am told that this claim has been verified by checking against a number
> of languages known to be related.  Interesting, if substantiated.
>
> Claim 2: If the proportion of phonetic resemblances in the 35-word list
> is higher than the proportion of phonetic resemblances in the 65-word
> list, then this is evidence that the languages are related.
>
> This second claim I have big problems with.  I myself do not believe
> that phonetic resemblances are of any significance at all in comparative
> linguistics, at least in the absence of a rigorous statistical
> underpinning.  Given the current conspicuous disagreements among the
> linguists working on statistical approaches to comparison, and the plain
> absence of any statistical approach that is generally regarded as valid
> and effective, there can be no such underpinning at present.
>
> A published summary of this work can be found here:
>
> Sergei Starostin (1991), Altajskaja Problema i Proiskhozhdenie
> Japonskogo Jazyka, Moscow: Nauka, pp. 59-60.
>
> This book was reviewed by Bernard Comrie in Language 69.
>
> I am told also that Yakhontov himself published a relevant paper in a
> volume released in 1997, edited by Alexander Ogloblin, and called
> `Indonesia, Malaysia, Phillipiny'.
>
> Just for interest, here is Yakhontov's 35-word list, passed on to me by
> one respondent, and taken from Starostin:
>
> wind, water, louse, eye, year
> give, two, know, tooth, name
> stone, bone, blood, who, moon
> new, nose, fire, one, full
> horn, hand, fish, dog, sun
> salt, thou, die, ear, tail
> what, this, I, tongue, egg
>
> My thanks to Ralf-Stefan Georg, Leonhard G. Herzenberg, Alexis Manaster
> Ramer, Sergei Starostin, and Alexander Vovin.
>
>
> Larry Trask
> COGS
> University of Sussex
> Brighton BN1 9QH
> UK
>
> larryt at cogs.susx.ac.uk
>