R: Q: Am Eng past for perfect

[Paolo Ramat]

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Dear Larry,
the idea seems quite plausible, from a diachronic point of view. We know for
sure that periphrastic forms developed in many IE languages, including the
Germanic ones, relatively later.
The situation of my native language is very similar. As is well-known,
simple past forms are used only in some varieties of Italian, whereas they
have disappeared or almost disappeared in other varieties. Sicilians may say
_'Ora ora arrivo' il ferry-boat'_,
North Italians,on the contrary, use forms with the 'have' or 'be' AUX also
for very remote events: _'Napoleone ha perso la battaglia di Waterloo'_,
_'N. e' stato sconfitto a W.'_
The use of the simple past ("passato remoto") seems to be limited to
narrative, literary texts.
Finally there are also language varieties (Tuscany) where a functional
opposition between periphrastic and non-periphrastic forms seems to be still
there. (_*?ora ora arrivo' il f.-b._ vs. _...e' arrivato..._
 and conversely
_*?Napoleone  e' stato sconfitto a W._ vs. _...fu
 sconfitto..._)
Thus, the choice depends upon many diatopic, diastratic (i.e.
sociolinguistic), diaphasic factors.
No wonder if Engl. varieties would reflect a similar complex situation.
-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Larry Trask <larryt at cogs.susx.ac.uk>
A: HISTLING at VM.SC.EDU <HISTLING at VM.SC.EDU>
Data: giovedì 6 luglio 2000 2.01
Oggetto: Q: Am Eng past for perfect


>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>As is well known, vernacular American English frequently
>uses the simple past tense in contexts in which other
>varieties of English, including edited American English,
>require the perfect.  Examples:
>
>        'Did you eat yet?' = 'Have you eaten yet?'
>        'I just ate.' = 'I've just eaten.'
>
>Most published commentary on this usage suggests that it
>may derive from the influence of European immigrant languages
>which do not systematically distinguish the past and the perfect.
>But, around a year ago, I stumbled across a suggestion that
>this vernacular usage might in fact be a conservative feature
>of spoken English, of some antiquity but little recorded in
>writing, surviving in the US but not elsewhere.  Unfortunately,
>I didn't note the reference, but now one of my colleagues, not on
>this list, is interested in pursuing this idea, and would like
>to retrieve this reference, or any other such suggestion.
>
>Does anybody know of any such published suggestion?  Or would
>anybody like to comment on its degree of plausibility, if any?
>
>
>Larry Trask
>COGS
>University of Sussex
>Brighton BN1 9QH
>UK
>
>larryt at cogs.susx.ac.uk
>
>Tel: 01273-678693 (from UK); 1273-678693 (from abroad)
>Fax: 01273-671320 (from UK); 1273-671320 (from abroad)
>