R: Q: German Forst 'forest'

[Paolo Ramat]

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Larry Trask +ADw-larryt+AEA-cogs.susx.ac.uk+AD4-
A: HISTLING+AEA-VM.SC.EDU +ADw-HISTLING+AEA-VM.SC.EDU+AD4-
Data: sabato 9 settembre 2000 1.55
Oggetto: Q: German Forst 'forest'


+AD4-----------------------------Original message----------------------------
+AD4-This is an etymological question.
+AD4-
+AD4-English 'forest' is, of course, borrowed from Old French,
+AD4-where it goes back to Late Latin +ADw-forestis (silva)+AD4- 'outer forest',
+AD4-with the first element possibly from +ADw-foris+AD4- 'outside'.
+AD4-
+AD4-I had always assumed that German +ADw-Forst+AD4- 'forest' had the same
+AD4-origin.  But, on checking, I find that things are more complicated.
+AD4-
+AD4-Some sources agree that the German word is of the same origin
+AD4-as the English one.  But other authorities, including Kluge,
+AD4-give a quite different etymology.  They derive +ADw-Forst+AD4- from an
+AD4-unrecorded +ACoAPA-forhist+AD4-, a derivative of Old High German
 +ADw-foraha+AD4-
+AD4-'fir tree' (modern +ADw-F+APY-hre+AD4-), with a semantic shift 'fir forest'
 +AD4-
+AD4-'conifer forest' +AD4- 'forest'.  Davis, in his English edition of Kluge,
+AD4-observes that opinion is divided on this etymology.
+AD4-
+AD4-Just to complicate things, Middle High German had a word +ADw-forest+AD4-
+AD4-'forest', which even the proponents of Kluge's etymology seem to
+AD4-agree is derived from Latin and unrelated to modern +ADw-Forst+AD4-.
+AD4-
+AD4-So, my question is this.  Is there now general agreement on the
+AD4-etymology of +ADw-Forst+AD4-?  Or is the question still up in the air?
+AD4-
+AD4-I ask because, if the Germanic etymology of +ADw-Forst+AD4- is confirmed,
+AD4-then 'forest' and +ADw-Forst+AD4- constitute one of the most wonderful
+AD4-chance resemblances I have ever seen -- right up there with
+AD4-English 'much' and Spanish +ADw-mucho+AD4- 'much', and English 'bad' and
+AD4-Persian +ADw-bad+AD4- 'bad'.
+AD4-
+AD4-
+AD4-Larry Trask
+AD4-COGS
+AD4-University of Sussex
+AD4-Brighton BN1 9QH
+AD4-UK
+AD4-
+AD4-larryt+AEA-cogs.susx.ac.uk
+AD4-
+AD4-Tel: 01273-678693 (from UK)+ADs- 1273-678693 (from abroad)
+AD4-Fax: 01273-671320 (from UK)+ADs- 1273-671320 (from abroad)

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Dear Larry,
the etymology of Germ. +AF8-Forst+AF8- proposed also in the 23rd. ed. of Kluge's
Etym. Wtb. der dt. Spr.
(by E. Seebold, 1995) sounds rather unconvincing. From a Gmc.
 +ACoAXw-forhist+AF8-
+ACI-Gehegtes+ACI- we should have  MHG +AF8-foerhest+AF8- (with Umlaut) and NHG
 +ACoAXw-foerst+ACI-,
just as we get +AF8-lengest+AF8-(+ADwAKgBf-langisto+AF8-),
 +AF8-ermest+AF8-(+ADwAKgBf-armisto+AF8-) etc., and NHG
+AF8-laengst+AF8-, +AF8-aermst+AF8-
Moreover, +AF8-Forst+AF8- seems not to be ProtoGmc.: it is attested in Germ. and
Dutch (+AF8-vorst+AF8-) only . Thus I think you are right: the chance that we
 have
here a loanword from Latin seems more plausible than the other hypothesis.
Also De Vries, Nederl. etymol. Woordenb., says that OHG +AF8-forst+AF8- ( ca.
 800)
may derive from MLat. +AF8-forestis+AF8- , +ACI-reeds in 648 in een oorkonde
 voor
Stavelot-Malm+AOk-dy+ACI-.

Best,
Paolo