FW: [ILAT] How many hours of recorded speech?

[Huang,Chun]

Thank you, Rolland. I am listening. 

Jimmy 

On Thu, 30 Aug 2012
05:26:36 -0400, Rolland Nadjiwon wrote: 

> Hi all...below are: 
> 
>
Responses to 'Where Are Your Keys'... 
> 
> I pondered the suggestions
and comments in the post for some time upon receiving it. Somehow, it
did not feel satisfactory. Keeping this in mind, I forwarded the post to
a PhD Professor of English Language Literature and Theory and a PhD in
Linguistics and am including their responses with this post. I realize
it is somewhat past the point of presentation of the posting but I feel
conversations of this nature have no 'shelf life' so long as there are
indigenous peoples they(the contents of the posting) are attempting to
apply to. I am not qualified to respond as a linguist so I will not
attempt to deceive anyone by pretending a qualification. However, I
retired two years ago from contractual teaching with a number of
Universities in Canada and the USA. My last contract was at the
University of British Colombia. I was given 'free rein' to develop a
course of my choosing...I finally submitted for a course in 'Ancestral
Memory'. I add this supplemental information only so the list members
can realize I have not, just recently, fallen off a 'turnip truck' and
my opinions do carry a measure of legitimacy...especially since I am
usually deemed 'off topic'. This one is not off topic but only a few
days late. 
> 
> Over the past 42 years, I have been involved in almost
every aspect of cultural and linguistic disintegration of so called
'Native Americans'. Over those 42 years, it became patently clear our
indigenous peoples in so called North and South America and constituent
archipelago, have a history that started only in 1492...after a lot of
Papal Bull(s) and resultant atrocities. Today the 'ancestral memories'
of those same generational perpetrators are now attempting to heal the
open wound of their continental consciousness using the almost identical
methods of colonization used by previous generations. It is still
colonization regardless of the intention or how 'wonderful' it allows
the colonizers to feel. Over those years of my involvement, I have
attended uncountable workshops all dedicated to the proposition that I
needed to change my behavior and conducted by nonindigenous consultants.
Some years ago, I stood up in one of the workshops and started to walk
out. The facilitator asked after me, 'Hey, where are you going...' in
his authoritative voice. First off, my name was not 'Hey' and as a
second, I paused turned to the him and the work shoppers and said, 'I am
a Potowatomi...because of what I have been put through for the last
'blankety blank' years, it has taken me this long to like myself, my
family, my community, my people, our culture and our language. I like
who I am now and who I always was and I am not about to change that for
anyone. If this means my job, I am now a 'free' agent....' and walked
out. 
> 
> How is all this of any relevancy.... 
> 
> I am a published
writer so a few years ago a very fluent speaker of one of the older
versions of 'anishinabehmowin' asked me if he could translate some of my
poems into his language. I told him, '...sure, that would be ok...' I
also told him I would agree under one condition, that he translate it
into his language and then without any reference what so ever, translate
what he had written back into English. He agreed. A week or so later, he
handed me a folder of his translation works with the three versions and
with some laughter told me the version he translated from his language
back into English was so very different from the original poem I had
written. We talked about that for a time and both agreed that kind of
harmonization between the languages could not be possible. He has not
attempted to translate any more of my poems. He said the result really
surprised him since he teaches anishinabehmowin at a local college. I
explained to him how I thought the English language, in particular, is
abstraction and manipulation expressly for the purpose of conquest,
colonization and is a mercantile language...a language of getting the
best part of the deal and is so in its daily living. Also, that English,
as we know it, is an agglomeration of many other languages assimilating
those words into their own thought patterns of trading for the best
deal. 
> 
> We talked about how any language is simply a tool and any
tool brought across cultures, if it is integrated into the cultural
patterns of the receiver, it is integration. If the tool is brought
across with the 'already lived in' meanings and culture of the 'other',
it is assimilation. When non native speakers attempt to revitalize or
teach a language to or back to the native speakers, they are doing so
with their 'already lived in' cultural baggage...in other words, it is
innately assimilationist unless you are just doing 'tourist' stuff. 
>

> In 1967, I was teaching elementary school in a very isolated fly in
community with very few English speakers, including the students. There
was a school in the community for only twelve years before I got there
so anyone older than twelve did not have the experience of attending and
'Indian Day School'. But to get to my point, I attended my first and
only 'teachers convention' with teachers from the many 'Indian'
communities located in the same 'Indian Affairs School District'...all
isolated and all with an already language and culture dominant in the
communities. I know because I worked with most of them before I began
teaching. 
> 
> At any rate, at this convention people/teachers were
sharing their experiences in these culturally, linguistically foreign
communities as a teacher. Most of what I heard telling felt almost like
having a rasp drawn across my bones. One teacher in particular, I really
had the urge to beat the crap out of him. He said it was really great in
'his' community and he was accepted like one of the community. Twice a
week he said he chose a student and told them, 'Tonight I am visiting
your home for tea so tell your Mom and Dad to have some tea and cakes
ready...' I could not believe what I was hearing...by the way, I was the
only 'indigenous' person there. He went on to explain to the gathering
how he was so respected. He said someone was the only one with a
complete set of dinner dishes and they would pass that set over to the
family who would be hosting him that evening. He concluded with,
'...that is how much they respected me and wanted me to feel as one of
them...' If this has not set you off by now, probably nothing can. 
> 
>
Anyhow, this teacher, much worse than the rest had not the slightest
inkling of what he was putting that community through while he
unbelievably thought he was doing a great thing and was in fact teaching
the community how to be good hosts. I was born into such a community and
if we saw a complete set of dishes laid out for tea and a cake, we were
definitely in someone's house who did not live on the reservation. In
the community I was in, we drank our tea out of totally recycled jam
jars or what ever could act as a drinking vessel short of birch bark.
Cake...their language did not even have a word for it...which is
probably not the present case. They may have invented a word by now
which may have become a community accepted descriptor, which is not to
say, the next community some air miles away would have worked out the
same descriptor or would know what people from that community were
talking about. They would understand the descriptor but it would not
have the universality of the English word 'cake'. 
> 
> What I am
saying, is, if you set up an artificial conversation in an artificial
social situation you will be putting out an artificial language and it
will not work socially or conversationally in the real time lives of the
people. We now have any number of people who speak our language who have
learned it in schools, in a school environment and are now qualified to
teach it back to the communities they have never lived in and may not
even be from or be even the same tribe. In our area it is already
causing great animosity because the teachers are from a totally
different dialectic area. The people do want their language, but they
want the 'real McCoy' not an academic or linguistics' version. 
> 
>
There is a bundle of discussion could happen with any of the points I
raise but there is neither time or space and at 5:08 AM, it is almost
time to get up with my Grandchildren so I had best bid 'good morning' to
anyone who reads it this morning. I will also repost this conversation
in its entirety to the two persons I consulted but without the
identification of ILAT... 
> 
> -------------------------
> 
>
-------------------------
> 
> Hi Rolland.
> 
> There are many
methodologies for teaching adults a new language. They have various
merits and disadvantages.
> 
> When we start from statements in English
and then translate them into an indigenous language we are no longer
teaching that language but an appropriated form of it. English is
especially adapted to do this for many reasons. For example, if I wanted
to learn how to say, How are you feeling? in Japanese, I might get an
answer, but it's taboo in Japanese to talk about their own or someone
else's feelings. A more usual question might be, Where are you going?.
On the other hand it's quite OK for a younger person, especially a
woman, to ask someone older whom they just met, How old are you? We
might consider that impertinent but it's crucial to establish the
relative age between speakers because it determines which of the
different languages are appropriate. Age and relationship, friend,
stranger, family, all are important to the language choices- grammar and
diction. Our standard sentences require subjects;
> Japanese doesn't.
One rarely says "I"- watashi- try avoiding it in English.
> 
> I can't
describe how this applies to Ojibwa, but I know it does in similar ways
and others. I know that it applies in different ways across languages,
including French and English. The heart of the problem is that when we
teach by starting with questions in English and translate them to
whatever language and then learn those we end up colonizing both the
native speakers of the language and the language itself. We distort it,
to say the least, and produce a hybrid, a dead and even deadly language.
They translated the Christian Bible into Japanese, but it wasn't really
Japanese any more. American centered academic Japanese isn't like
Japanese anymore either. MLA rules don't apply, but the language is
quite capable of adopting those distortions. Passive sentences are
preferred to direct statement. 'Beating around the bush' a far more
preferable than direct statement. Ambiguity is fine. Passive sentences
are often preferred, partly because the subject doesn't need to be
specified. Silence is the best way to communicate. We learn to abhor it.
He must be bored, we'd say. Maybe stupid.
> 
> Cultural differences are
embedded in language and languages embed and promote the values of their
cultures.A lot of harm has resulted. is resulting. from imposing the
cultural values embedded in English, that most English speakers take for
granted and common sense. How many English speakers question the idea
that a sentence is a complete thought, and furthermore, that the though
is not complete if the sentence isn't a complete sentence. Both ideas
are false.
> 
> It's not a good idea to use fluent native speakers of a
language and transforn them into tape or whatever recorders. I'd call
that linguocide, a form of genocide. There are batter ways; we still
have a lot to learn about teaching languages. 
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
>
Bernie
> 
> -------------------------
> 
> -------------------------
>

> FROM: _Karl_ 
> SENT: August-28-12 1:20 PM
> TO: Rolland Nadjiwon
>
SUBJECT: Re: FW: How many hours of recorded speech?
> 
> Yeah, that's
not really teaching the language, in my opinion. It is the style of
language teaching they use for tourists who want to visit foreign lands.
The best way to learn, I think is total immersion. That becomes a
problem with a culture where fewer and fewer people speak the native
language. However, if one could get enough native speakers together to
teach a kind of "summer school" experience, say in a modest camp, with
lessons and recreation each day, then I think that might work a lot
better. And no English allowed, not even when classes are out, or there
are "penalties" (like having to wash the dishes, or do the laundry or
something - nothing too serious but enough to discourage people speaking
in anything but the native language - it would be gentler, wiser,
reversal of the rez school situation where kids were punished severely
if they didn't speak English - and this setting could be outdoors,
"woodsy" with canoeing, swimming, games, music, etc., and there could
also be lessons in traditional ways, such as story-telling, history
lessons, learning about flora and fauna, medicines, proper rituals for
special occasions, healing circles and healing circle traditions, sweat
lodge, etc). Set up camps like that for each of the main tribes, each
summer for a couple of months. The kids would be acculturated by the
time they reach their teens (starting with visits each summer at maybe
age 8 yrs. old - so 4 to 5 years of that would help a lot, I'd think).
That's how they do it at Latvian camps in Canada and the U.S. for those
who want to hold onto their culture, but alas, even that is fading now
and many north american Balts are getting slowly assimilated. Agh.
Still, they hold on and at least there are the Baltic states which still
exist and help preserve the culture which is very different from
indigenous cultures in North America which are threatened daily. 
> 
>
Best wishes, 
> Karl
> 
> Dept. of English Language, Literature &
Creative Writing
> 
> -----"Rolland Nadjiwon" wrote: ----- 
> 
> To:
Karl and Bernie
> From: "Rolland Nadjiwon" 
> Date: 08/28/2012 03:19AM
>
Subject: FW: How many hours of recorded speech?
> 
> Just wondering what
you think of these comments and suggestions for
> language learning with
indigenous learners. I checked him out and he teaches
> 'facilitators'
to teach language using his 'Where Are Your Keys? Program
>
methodology....I wanted to respond to his posting but mine always seem
to
> result in un-resolvable dichotomies or the suggestion I am off
topic or
> offending someone. This is a list entitled 'Indigenous
Languages and
> Technology(ILAT)'. Most often they speak of language not
as a tool but as a
> solution innately assimilationist...not that it is
their intention so much
> as it is built into the very foundation of
their conceptualization of
> 'other'.
> It was suggested to me years ago
that I had to learn to speak to officials
> of the Christian Religions
and academics with more than a grunt. I studied
> hard at expanding my
grunts only to arrive at a place where a 'grunt' would
> still be much
easier to work with...
> 
> wahjeh
> rolland nadjiwon
> ________________

> The use of solar energy has not been opened up because the oil
industry does
> not own the sun.
> Ralph Nader 
> 
> -----Original
Message-----
> From: On Behalf Of Evan Gardner
> Sent: August-27-12 9:13
PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: How many hours of recorded speech?
> 
> Evan
from Where Are Your Keys? here...
> 
> What a wonderful question! I
instantly started dreaming of the possibilities
> and if I could go back
in time and record fluent speakers for the purpose of
> using the
recordings to make new speakers...
> 
> My wish would be recordings of
people making arrangements to have a party,
> gathering, get together...
lots of back and forth, question and answer,
> present/simple tense
dialog.
> 
> Ex:
> When do you want to have a party?
> Who should we
invite? why?
> Who should we not invite? Why?
> Will all my
ex-girlfriends be there? Will all your ex-girlfriends be there?
> What
is the purpose of the party? Why are we having this gathering?
> 1st
birthday? 100th? funeral? wedding? language night? movie?
> What will we
eat?
> Who is bringing what dish? is that a good idea?
> How is everyone
getting there? Do they need rides?
> Which?
> Where?
> How often?
> How
many people?
> Why? Why not?
> 
> This kind of back and forth will give
better examples of entry level
> conversation. There is a tendency to
record word lists (too basic) and high
> level story telling (too
advanced). There is seldom enough simple but
> complete "get 'r' done"
language which shows the simple and elegant
> structures and patterns of
living languages. I hope for enough of these
> conversations to write
appropriate level children's books... See Spot Run.
> and then 1st grade
2nd grade 3rd grade through 7th grade readers. Scaffold
> grammar to get
people speaking using conversations and not word lists.
> 
> Another
area I would like to see more of is real joking, teasing, arguing in
>
the language... how do fluent elders rip on each other?
> Respect each
other? Love each other? Get mad at each other?...
> irreverent, bold,
loving, but real. Retelling of actual events by the
> participants in
those events.
> 
> "Can you guys remember a time when you had a fight?
What was it about?
> Who won?" of course there must be a lot of trust in
the room for this kind
> of interaction. But I remember my Grandma
wouldn't hold back when she
> talked about the wonderful things, and
stupid adventures my Grampa had put
> her through. I wish the tape
player was going then.
> Like the time he wrecked their model T in down
town New York because he
> wanted to see how many red lights he could
run without having to stop...4...
> the garbage truck suffered minor
damage... no-one was harmed... Model T
> towed away at Gradma's expense!
Now there is a kids'
> book using the grammar extrapolated from a
documentation exercise! HOW
> MANY?...
> 
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