andera 'woman' Celtic ?

[X99Lynx at aol.com]

In a message dated 4/2/99 11:25:13 PM, roslynfrank at hotmail.com wrote, with
regard to the following:
<<I confess that the celticity of _*andera_ 'woman' (found in French
dialects) is extremely uncertain>>

<<In the model discussed here, the anecdote cited above concerning <chandro>
serves as an example of what might have happened, naturally, on a much wider
scale, when *<andere>/*<andre-> (or a phonologically similar prototype) as a
title of respect for female elders (and mature females) came to be used with
post-pubescent males, also.>>

I can't say that any of what you or Prof Vennemann have conjectured about the
word are not true.  I am only questioning whether perhaps more recent
influences might account for the word.

<<If I am reading your simulation correctly, that would mean that the Gk.
term's meaning --at that point in time when the linguistic contacts took
place and the expression passed into Celtic (and Euskera?)-- must have been
to the female of the human species. Right? Would it be possible for you to
provide your model with more specificity in terms of the time frame that we
might be talking about for this "contact period". Also, what is the
time-depth that should be assigned to the Gk. reflexes according to your
model?>>

Here's some theories based on documented Greek or Greek/Latin contact in the
south of France all before the current era or soon after.

One is that the word is a learned word, passing into "French dialects" (and
Euskera?) without any necessary phonetic change, from some very specific
sources that we have some very firm evidence of.

"Andria" appears in a somewhat famous comedy by the Roman playwright Terence.
 Andria > Woman of Andros.  Andros being one of the Cyclades .  The story is
sometimes titled "The Maid of Andrus".  (Thorton Wilder wrote a bestseller
titled "Woman of Andros" based on the story. ) More generally, Andrius, a,
um, adj., of Andros, one of the Cyclades.  There was a late Roman commentary
that I didn't quite get that I think suggests that the term "andria" had some
wider meaning that was used ironically in the play.  (The play is about a
courtesan who grows old while being in love with a younger man.  Perhaps the
irony is that the audience knew "andria" to mean 'maid' or 'lady.'  I don't
know.)  Perhaps it  existed in vulgar Latin and we simply have no other
record of it.  Perhaps it was a proper name that turned into a category
(e.g., Caesar, Jezebel, Karl>krol, Rurik>Rus, etc.)  Also I would like to
known about the the first appearance of the given name "Andrea" and how it
might be related.  In any case, you have an instance of "andr- andri-a" in
use in Classic Latin refering to a woman (a Greek woman.)

The passage of the word from 'and-ri-a" to "and-er-a" of course is no more
complex than the passage of the proper name 'Alexandros' to 'Alexander'.  It
could perhaps have gone from Latin to Romance along the same path as other
"learned" words (e.g., fragilem> fragile, versus frele.) and then to Euskera.
This puts perhaps a rather late date on it.

Another theory is that Andros, the Greek island was involved earlier.  The
island is mentioned by Greek writers as having formed a fair number of early
(pre-300bce) colonies, and was associated with the also Ionian Phokia, which
is in turn credited with the founding of the Greek colony Massilia
(Marseilles) about 600bce. Also just about 80 miles north of Massalia was
located ANDERITUM (sometimes called Gabalum as the chief city of the Celtic
Gabales), also later a fairly important Roman center.  (The word would have
moved east and north with other Greek borrowings that occur in early French.)

The premise here would be that at some point rich or "patrician" ladies of
Greek descent or persuasion were referred to by their ancestral associations.
 This is a fairly common way of refering to women (but not men) with the use
of foreignisms or group self-names.  When Mark Twain wrote "the room was
blessed here and there with pretty senoritas," he is doing  something
similar.  In English, similar usage happens when a female is referred to as a
"coleen" or a "fraulein." or for that matter "hausfrau."  Similar is the
accepted source of the "polka" (the dance) as "polska" although "polka"
without the "-s-" seems to be the self-name.  Also, "mazurka."  Perhaps a
good example as it transfered into English is "madame" - which can connote
both status and meaning beyond the male equivalent (monsieur) but comes with
an awareness that the word is a foreignism.

The last theory is a little tougher.  Did "aner, andri-" expanded in meaning
as a Greek colonist self-name to include both genders - and then contract to
mean only the female?   Well perhaps it was originally related to a special
traditional female vested right based on Greek descent.  There is a parallel
of sorts - "dowager" never refers to anyone but a female and is used to
convey social status and age and as much as legal status.  And like one of my
favorite words with a similar stem, "center", it could be a Greek word
(kentrum") with multiple meanings that completely jumped Latin and ended up
in French with one of those meanings.  Also there is the possibility of a
calque of "ananderia" which with the prefix "ana-" (without) was used by
Classic Greek writers to refer to widows - perhaps a special status in
context.

None of this is meant to deny a Vasconic derivation, but only to suggest that
a later Greek source might be possible, if not probable.

Regards,
Steve Long