Uralic and IE

[Miguel Carrasquer Vidal]

"Glen Gordon" <glengordon01 at hotmail.com> wrote:

>MIGUEL:
>  The instrumental (where it exists at all and isn't made with
>  *bhi/*mi) shows a lengthened vowel in all roots (-a: for a:-stems,
>  -i: for i-stems, -o: or -e: for o-stems), which can only mean -H1.

>Which can mean either a lengthened vowel or *H1, really. Besides
>probably Latin?, what evidence of this *-(e)H1 exists?

A lengthened vowel in Vedic, Greek, Germanic, Lithuanian.  The
quality of the vowel is unaffected.  Therefore, we must
reconstruct *H1 (unless you think that laryngeal-PIE had long
vowels *e: and *o:).

>MIGUEL:
>  Hittite has -it (< *-et).  If we postulate a development **-t >
>  *-H1, the Hittite form can be connected to the others [as well as to
>  other, extra-IE, instrumentals in -t, if we so wish.  I give you
>  Georgian -it, Sumerian -ta].

>Yes, that's right. I'm agreement with you but with vastly different
>reasons. And don't forget Uralic *-ta :) which is most evidently more
>relatable to the ablative *-ed based on those regular sound changes I
>mentioned.

Non-Nostraticists look the other way...  Indeed: PIE *d == Uralic
*t, PIE *t == Uralic *tt.  That's why I have taken great care to
distinguish between the ablative in *d and the instrumental in *t
(cf. again Georgian ablative -dan/adverbial -ad, Sumerian
comitative -da).

>Being that *-men and *-ten are patterned on **-e'n (note
>that *-n does not become *-r in *-men as Miguel might want to think)

Actually, what I stated (following Jens) was that -n > -r, except
that in -men/-mn, final -n did not change.

>it should come to no one's surprise that the plural conjugation ended
>up with accented suffixes. Nor should it be shocking that the genitive
>*-es (**-ese) is also accented (cf. Etruscan -isa [genitive] and ?
>Sumerian -se [dative]).

The Etruscan genitives are *-si and *-la (e.g. for the a-stems:

Gen *-a-si    > -as     *-a-la    > -al
Abl *-a-si-si > -es     *-a-la-si > -al(a)s
Dat *-a-si-i  > -asi    *-a-la-i  > -ale)

The Sumerian dative is -ra.  -she3 is the terminative ("towards,
into, to").

>MIGUEL:
>  Surely -H2, if anything.

>Judging by Greek we might have the following sketchy hypothesis:

>                  *-H1-/-H2-/*-H3- >? Greek -k-

>I of course severely doubt *-H1- as a possibility but lacking evidence
>that supports Greek's peculiar whims as archaic, you are unable to
>narrow these choices down.

I realize that you are new to this laryngeal business, but the
a:-stems have *-H2.

>Can you find a valid
>example of IE *-t that doesn't involve the 3rd person? I rest my case.

No, because *-t became *-H1.  I rest my case :)

=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv at wxs.nl
Amsterdam