"Perfective" definition

[Patrick C. Ryan]

Dear Larry, Lloyd, and IEists:

----- Original Message -----
From: <ECOLING at aol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 2:06 PM

> Larry Trask's definition of "perfective",
> which Pat quoted today, is very much on target.

>> Larry, for example, in his dictionary defines "perfective" as "A
>> superordinate aspectual category involving a lack of explicit reference
>> to
>> the internal temporal consistency of a situation",

> Other than not knowing what the "superordinate" means here
> (general, abstract?), "lack of explicit reference to the internal
> temporal consistency of a situation" is very much like the shorter
> "treated as an indivisible unit" which I use.  Either works.
> The crucial point is to include the concept that it is not what the
> situation is in reality, but raher how it is "treated" or "referred to"
> in the minds of speakers and listeners.

> Beyond that, it is possible to add some prototypical examples,
> but they are not definitional, merely illustrative.

> The Russian perfective vs. imperfective is NOT the same thing
> as the universal term perfective vs. imperfective.
> At least in many cases, the Russian so-called "perfective"
> is more a telic completive, hence the use of pre-verbs,
> much like "climb" vs. "climb up", as Pat rightly notes for
> English.
> The category so NAMED in any particular language has its own
> special flavors, narrowing or broadening of particular uses,
> which distinguish it from a pure universal definitional
> perfective or imperfective.

Traditionally, perfective aspect has had a linguistic definition of "an
aspect of verbs that expresses a completed action as distinct from a
continuing or not necessraily completed action" (AHD). I have already quoted
Pei's earlier definition, which corresponds.

So points to be noted: Larry's dictionary does *not* contain your
"completive"  nor yet "momentary" but does contain "punctual": "The aspect
category expressing an action or state which is confined to a single instant
of time . . . The punctual is a subdivision of the perfective".

Obviously, his "punctual" is very much like your "treated as an indivisible
unit", which, according to Larry is only a subdivision of the grander
perfective, "A superordinate aspectual category involving a lack of explicit
reference to the internal temporal consistency of a situation",.

Now I am a native speaker of English but I find his definition not only
incomprehensible but frankly, inapplicable to such recognized "perfectives"
as those of Russian because it would not differentiate them from the Russian
imperfectives.

Perhaps one of you would care to explain how Larry's definition could
identify the Russian perfective.

Secondly, I question the formulation of definitions so broad as  to include
what I consider to be legitimately different-termed aspects in languages
other than those which conform to the traditional use of "perfective".

In fact, I would be interested to know a language which has a category
"perfective" according to *his* definition but one which does *not* conform
to the traditional definition of "perfective".

One example will illustrate the problem I have with Larry's and your
definition of "perfective".

'Santa Claus was climbing up the chimney.'

This verb in this sentence I consider to be perfective and durative. It
describes a action with a definite goal which certainly does not restrict
itself to single point of time.

Pat