Perfective-Imperfective (3) - Possessives

[Patrick C. Ryan]

 ----- Original Message -----
From: Larry Trask <larryt at cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 1999 1:25 PM

[ moderator snip ]

[LT responded]
> OK; some facts.  First, Beekes does not use the term `possessive
> pronoun' at all in the passage cited by Ryan: he uses only the term
> `possessive', which no one can object to.  Hence Ryan's rather snide
> comments are pointless.

[PR interjects]
Well, fact: Beekes does not use "determiner"; fact: "possessive" is defined
in AHD as: "of, pertaining to, or *designating* a noun or pronoun case that
expresses belong or other similar relation".

[LT continued]
> Second, Beekes is talking about PIE, while I was talking about English.

[PR interjects]
So what?

[LT continued]
> Whatever may be the case in PIE, or in any other language, the facts of
> English are clear: words like `my' and `your' are not pronouns, but
> determiners.  Possessive determiners, of course, but determiners.
> This is easy to see, using a frame for noun phrases:

> ___ was nice. (singular); ___ were nice. (plural)

> Real pronouns can go into these blanks to make good sentences: She was
> nice; It was nice; They were nice; Something was nice; Nothing was nice;
> That was nice; and so on.  This is also true for the *real* possessive
> pronouns in English: Mine was nice; Ours was nice.

> But it doesn't work with the determiners: *My was nice; *Your was nice;
> *Our was nice.

[PR]
Possessive pronouns (BT = Before Trask)  have two forms: an adjectival use:
'her', etc. and nominal use: 'hers'.

In casual speech, one might hear: 'My one was nice'; and 'His was nice'.

Of course, *mine* ears have heard a certain amount of overlap between forms
used for each of these two major employments.

Now, if we say 'His was nice', the 'his' stands for a possessive N like
'John's'. The 'his', or 'her(s)', must have a nominal referent; and it
stands for ('pro') this nominal referent.

Now I have no great objection to terming "her" a "possessive determiner" but
using this terminology eliminates the interesting connection with pronouns,
which I find superfluously disadvantageous.

Pat

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