PIE and Uralic

[X99Lynx at aol.com]

I wrote:

<<Now I have somewhat earlier dates here for the existence of proto-Uralic
(Dolukhanov 1996) -- 10,000 - 7,000BP -- citing (Hajdu 1975).  I also have it
extending all the way to the Black Sea and eastern Caucasus to the Urals.  Do
you have newer data?>>

[First let me correct the above to the extent that it refers to the
mesolithic theories that are also mentioned in the same context by Dolukhanov
(1996) p.46.  This was read to me over the phone and I see looking at it now
that Hajdu actually places proto-Uralic 'from the Baltic to the Urals'
between 10,000-7000BP.]

In a message dated 2/1/00 3:06:48 PM, anaikio at mail.student.oulu.fi wrote:
<<As for dates, 7000BP is a sensible estimate and quite compatible with my
"4000BC or earlier", while 10000BP seems -very- early.>>

Just to take this one point at a time.  Hajdu's date of proto-Uralic unity
has it ending about 5000BC.  Your 4000BC or earlier is as you say compatible
from one point of view.  But that 5000BC is noteworthy I believe for PIE.
The extra thousand years or more could make a big difference.

You wrote originally:
<<During the last ten years it has been discovered that Uralic languages
possess extremely ancient IE loan words: they were loaned from proto-IE to
proto-U[ralic], which has been dated approximately 4000 bc or before. >>

BUT THE FIRST BIG QUESTION IS: What was the location of proto-Uralic?

THE REASON THIS IS A BIG QUESTION IS:
The 4000BC+ date for p-Uralic final unity could put it in contact with MORE
THAN ONE CULTURE that might be the source of those 'PIE' loans.  AND THOSE
INCLUDE THE FIRST NEOLITHIC CULTURES in southeastern Europe.  (Hajdu's 5000BC
date makes this just as likely.)

Neolithicism (including animal domestication) appears to enter eastern
Europe/Ukraine from the Balkans in the packaged form of the Cucuteni-Tripolye
culture.  Dates for the initial wave begin at about 5500BC.  By 4500, a
middle stage of the culture has moved east and north to reach 'east of the
Dniestr, penetrating to the Southern Bug catchment and reaching the Dnieper.'
  By this time copper metalurgy is also present, with ornaments and copper
axes being found.  Cucuteni-Tripolye culture shows many attributes distinctly
relating it to the Balkan-Anatolian 'ceramic' neolithic culture that predated
it to the south, including copper metallurgy.

Also arising about this time to the east is the Sredni Stog culture - located
'in the forest-steppic interfluve between the Dnieper and Don rivers.'  Early
and middle Sredni Stog has been dated in the area of 4500BC.  And it is a
prime candidate for the first domestication of the horse, though remains show
a primary reliance on other domesticates.  It is a question whether animal
domestication came to Sredni Stog from the south east across the Caucasus or
from the west.  There are also other developed neolithic cultures in the area
at this time - Gumelnita and Michaelovka - located fundamentally on the Black
Sea coast between the Danube and Dniester.

North of all the cultures mentioned above is a long. slender band of river
basin semi-neolithic settlements extending from the upper Prut to perhaps the
Volga - not much further north than the modern north Ukraine - which is
called Dniestr- Donetsian (5000-3500BC).  Imported Bandkermik pottery -
hallmark of the middle neolithic - is found throughout these sites.

NOW THE IMPORTANT QUESTION: where is it that you understand Uralic might be
in contact with any of these cultures 5000-4000BC?

THE POINT: The evidence I have suggests that the PIE loans you describe could
easily be associated with contact made with the first penetrations of
neoliticism into south eastern Europe.  So that perhaps what the loans
represent not 'wide PIE' but post-Anatolian 'narrow PIE' - based on 'the
neolithic hypothesis.'

Here is my understanding of the situation north of these areas.

I have that about this time apparently a continum of cultures with very
similar typology ran from the Baltic eastward to the Volga - the Finnish
'Sperrings', Narva, Upper Volga and Volga Kuma - all roughly dating from
6000-4500 BC.

Soon after this my sources describe an expansion of 'pit and comb' cultural
markers southward (starting about 4500BC) that will cross into the areas
described above - extending into the regions occupied by both
Cucuteni-Tripolyte and Sredni Stog -  but most of all, Dnieper-Donetsian.
Dolukhanov identifies 'pit and comb' as likely the southward migration of
"Finnish speaking peoples' from the north - based on continuity with Narva
and Upper Volga typology - and the persistence of Sperrings and Narva in situ
into the 2d millenium BC.

CONCLUSION:
All this suggests that these PIE loans might be most easily associated with
the contacts coming alongside of the first neolithic ceramics to the
Narva-Sperrings-Volga group.  Or - on the other hand - with the coming of
'pit and comb''s later expansion into neolithic areas in the south.  All
dating before 4000BC.

Please correct me, update me or whatever.

Regards
Steve Long