Renfrew's Celtic Scenario

[X99Lynx at aol.com]

I wrote:
<<All that Renfrew's statement 'requires' is that "an early indoeuropean
language" arrive in europe 'north and west of the alps' before 4000BC.>>

In a message dated 2/2/00 12:43:52 PM, JoatSimeon at aol.com wrote:
<<-- 7000 BCE, actually, for the start of the process.  Agriculture in
north-central Europe long predates 4000 BCE, and Renfrew attributes the
spread of IE languages to the spread of agriculture.>>

Well, agriculture may have been first developed in the Levant - so you have
him there, too.  And of course you'll find agriculture in the Far East and in
the Americas and presumably IE languages did not accompany those
developments.  Seems this theory is falling apart:)

I'll try to address this again from this angle. ---

Actually, what Renfrew does is associate the original spread of IE languages
in Europe with PARTICULAR CULTURAL REMAINS (assemblages) that coincide - in
many but NOT all cases - with the diffusion of agriculture.  The appearance
of agriculture itself of course cannot possibly in all instances equal IE -
this should be apparent.

Here's a rough chronology of that cultural evidence - very rough now - that
may help straighten this out with regard to Celtic:

@7000BC - farming in Anatolia and southern Greece (cultural uniformities not
yet visible)
@6500 - 5400BC - the neolithic culture associated with Balkan-Anatolian
painted ware develops and reaches the Danube.
@5400BC - early stages of 'Bandkeramik'; beginning of expansion east and
northwest; beginnings of C-T in the western Ukraine
@4900BC - early 'Bandkeramik' reaches Holland; evidence for regular trade
contacts with the Danube - extremely small populations, few settlements,
'remarkable uniformity' in remains evidenced
@4600BC - expansion beyond the early narrow Bandkeramik corridor north of the
Alps and northwestern Europe
@4200BC - pollen evidence shows first extensive clearances of land in
peripheral areas, exponential growth in populations and settlements;
differentiation in local cultures
@4000BC - megalithic period begins, evidence of metallurgy (smelting) has
expanded from the Balkans to Denmark, northern Italy and the Ukraine;
beginnings of the secondary products revolution; beaker and corded ware
cultures begin to appear

By 4000BC, there is enough differentiation between regional expressions of
Bandkeramik to suggest that the former cultural unities are giving way to
local identities in western Europe and north of the Alps.  [Southwestern
Europe is a different matter not addressed here.]

So if we were going to hypotheize a corrolation between language and these
events we MIGHT do something like this:

@5500BC - 'Wide PIE' splits into Anatolian and "narrow PIE"
@4900BC - Migration spreads 'Narrow PIE'
@4600BC - A north western European version of [narrow PIE] arises
@4000BC - An "early IE language" develops in parts of western Europe and
north of the Alps.
@3500BC -  Local differentiation in this 'early IE language' begins
@2200BC -  A dialect of one of these languages becomes 'pre-Celtic'
@1500BC -  A dialect of 'pre-Celtic' becomes 'proto-Celtic' near the Alps
@ 800BC -   A dialect or dialects of 'proto-Celtic' become associated with,
expand along with and control a trade network that spreads iron
metalurgy,etc. in western Europe.
@ 600BC - Celtic languages make their first apparent appearance in the
Lepontic tablets, using a Ligurian (non-Celtic) script.
@ 350BC - Celtic languages begin to appear in other scripts.  Speakers of
early Gaulish - a Celtic language associated with southeastern
France/southwestern Germany migrate to other areas in eastern and western
Europe - partly due to incursions coming from the direction of Italy and
northern Germany

Some might at first have a problem with this scenario feeling that this puts
too much time - 5500 years - between "narrow PIE" (the theoretical ancestor
of all IE languages minus Anatolian) and say Celtic at say 1BC.

But does it really?  Let us consider another language as it would have
developed under a later, Ukraine homeland theory.

@3300BC - Wide PIE disperses, speakers leave the Ukraine
@ between 3000 and 2000BC - an early IE language arrives in Italy.
@ between 2000 and 1500BC - perhaps a dialect becomes Pre-Latin
@ between  1500 and 1000BC - perhaps a dialect becomes proto-Latin
@ between 1000 and 300BC -   a dialect becomes early Latin
@ between 300BC and 600AD - Latin scripts show a 'remarkable uniformity' from
Britain to Persia and Africa
@ between 600AD - 1000AD - dialects of Latin become Romance languages
@ between 1000AD - 2000AD - scripts in the Romance languages appear from
Quebec to Ethiopia, showing 'a remarkable uniformity.'  Italian is
particularly Latin-like.  Perhaps more importantly, inscriptions appearing in
Latin, on the US Dollar, on religious objects and at the end of e-mail
messages (but not on ogham sticks) show NO CHANGE IN THE LANGUAGE at all -
1800 years later!

The journey is 5300 years and it seems to show all the same evidence you
object to in the Renfrew scenario.

Regards,
Steve Long