thy thigh etc.

[Leo A. Connolly]

Eduard Selleslagh wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Leo A. Connolly" <connolly at memphis.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 6:04 PM

>> ERobert52 at aol.com wrote:

>>> In a message dated 20/05/01 10:35:02 GMT Daylight Time,
>>> connolly at memphis.edu writes:

>>> [referring to [c,] and [x] in German]

>> I checked in the Duden Aussprachewörterbuch of 1962 and found Chaldi
>> [xaldi], Chalid [xali:t], Chalil [xali:l], and Charga [xarga], all with [x-]
>> rather than [ç], while Chamaphyte [çamEfy:t] (!), Chamäzephalie
>> [çamEtsefali:], Chasma [çasma] with [ç].  I also found Chatte
>> ([çat@] beside [kat@]) but Chatti [xati].  So no, if these pronunciations
>> are factually correct, your rule doesn't work.  It would in any event be
>> very strange for the pronunciation of a consonant in a Germanic language to
>> be determined by a noncontiguous consonant.

>> Leo Connolly

> [Ed Selleslagh]

> All these are 'foreign' words. It looks like German tries to
> imitate/approximate the original sound: [x] e.g. in (Arabic and oriental)
> Chalid, Chalil, and [ç] e.g. in words perceived to be French or introduced
> via French ( for [S]). I think the choice between [ç] and [x] , or the
> choice for following the general rule ([ç] with front vowels) or not, is
> mainly determined by a word's history. Note that <ch> is often pronounced
> [k], also historically determined.

Oh, indeed they are foreign.  It's only in Schwyzer Düütsch that we find
initial [x] in native words, and no variety has initial [ç] in them.
But that's beside the point.  If Duden's pronunciations are factually
correct -- a rather large assumption -- then [x] and [ç] do contrast in
initial position and must therefore be assigned to different phonemes.
Unless we want to say that foreign words *as foreign* have a different
set of phonemes than native ones, quod Deus avertat. -- I would note,
BTW, that Swiss German lacks [ç] completely, so that whatever analysis
of standard German proves correct, Swiss has only one phoneme, viz. /x/.

Leo Connolly