[Lexicog] one practical question re. weak verbs

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----- Original Message -----
From: "John Roberts" <dr_john_roberts at sil.org>
To: <lexicographylist at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Lexicog] one practical question re. weak verbs


Ron,

Note that Collins COBUILD has

fro /see/ to and fro

while Chambers has 'to and fro' as a subentry under the preposition 'to',
with no entry for 'fro' (at least not the 'fro' in 'to and fro').

Your recommendation to give definitions, usage etc. in every place an item
from a compound or phrase occurs is only practical where there are a few
instances. If you have a language with hundreds of compounds or phrases
based on a single weak verb, for example, and you gave definitions, usage
etc. under subentries, you would end up with a very large complex entry - a
dictionary within a dictionary. This might be more difficult to negotiate
than just referring the user to the main entry where the compound or phrase
is listed according to the first item. In practise you are only giving the
user one more search to do.

John
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Ron Moe
  To: lexicographylist at yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 8:05 PM
  Subject: RE: [Lexicog] one practical question re. weak verbs


  I believe the needs of the user are paramount in this discussion. Where
will he look to find what he is looking for? If he looks for the first word
and the phrase is listed under the first word, all is well. But if he looks
for the second word and the phrase is not there either as a head word or a
subentry, then he either is disappointed or has to go looking again. I
suspect most languages have phrases in which the second item is not a free
standing word. An English example is the (slightly archaic) 'to and fro'. To
handle the need of the user to find 'fro' we need two entries:

  fro  /only used in the phrase/ to and fro  /adv./ Back and forth; first in
one direction then the opposite direction. /He paced to and fro./

  to and fro  /adv./ Back and forth. /He paced to and fro./

  In this way the user finds the information he needs where he is most
likely to look, assuming he already knows the words 'to' and 'and', and is
puzzled by the unfamiliar 'fro'. In order to save space, we could use a
minor entry:

  fro  /see/ to and fro

  But this does not give the user the information he needs in the first
place he looks. So we may have to make a difficult decision--whether to save
space or be maximally helpful. If you include lots of phrases, listing them
all under each word in the phrase will radically increase the size of the
book. So we have to decide if the user wants a maximally helpful book or an
inexpensive book.

  We need to decide for each phrase where the user might look to find it. I
don't think we would want to list 'to and fro' under 'and'. With each of the
following phrases I would expect the user to look first under the starred
member:

  come into *view, make *eyes at, see something with your own *eyes, get an
*eyeful

  I don't think anyone would look under the functors:

  come *into view, make eyes *at, see *something *with *your *own eyes, get
*an eyeful

  Some people might look under the verb in each of these cases, which also
happen to be the first word and where the phrase would be alphabetized:

  *come into view, *make eyes at, *see something with your own eyes, *get an
eyeful

  But each of the verbs is common and their meaning would most likely be
known, either as a strong verb or a weak verb. So we need to ask if the user
would identify these phrases as idioms, if they would be able to identify
which words make up the idiom, if they would be able to give the citation
form of the idiom (i.e. extract 'see something with your own eyes' from "I
wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes"), and if
they would know where to look to find the idiom in the dictionary.

  So the procedure for phrases is:
  (1) Identify the citation form.
  (2) Determine which word the user is likely to look under to find the
phrase (usually the contentives).
  (3) Enter the phrase as a main entry under the first word of the phrase.
  (4) Enter the phrase under each other word the user is likely to look
under, either as a main entry, minor entry, or subentry.

  Ron Moe

   -----Original Message-----
  From: John Roberts [mailto:dr_john_roberts at sil.org]
  Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 10:11 AM
  To: lexicographylist at yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Lexicog] one practical question re. weak verbs


    David,

    It depends on what type of dictionary you are producing. If it is to be
form-based, then you would have a main entry for the weak verb with the
compounds listed as sub-entries, i.e.

    \lx jang
    \ps n.
    \de bell
    \se jang etmek
    \de to telephone, ring

    This is the way traditional English dictionaries, such as Chambers, do
it. But if the dictionary is to be semantic-based then the compound with the
weak verb gets its own main entry - since it is a lexeme, i.e.

    \lx jang etmek
    \ps v.
    \de to telephone, ring

    and the weak verb only gets a main entry if it can occur alone. This is
the way modern English dictionaries, such as Collins COBUILD, do things, and
it is my preference for a dictionary layout. There is nothing to stop you
doing it both ways. Give all the compounds based on weak verbs as main
entries with definitions of meaning, etc. but have a cross-reference in the
entry for the weak verb itself to all its formatives.

    John Roberts





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