[Lexicog] Criteria for example sentences

[Translation MALI]

Jonathan,

In the "cow" case you might be helped by the fact that whales "sing".

Fritz Goerling


Instead of "a dog barks" consider "a cow moos". Here the problem might
be: what sense of cow is intended. Certainly bovine cows moo, but do
female whales? So, when a term is used in an example sentence the user
is still left wondering what sense (if multiple senses are available)
of the term is meant?


Jonathan Amith


Quoting Ron Moe <ron_moe at sil.org>:

> Mike and Benjamin have been discussing example sentences such as "the
> dog
> barks" and "cast a spell"  (see below). In my list of domains I have
> a
> domain for 'Animal sounds'. I understand that some languages have few
> words
> in this domain. All animals 'cry' or something like that. English has
> a fair
> number of them, many of them restricted to a single species or at
> least a
> very limited set. Cows 'moo', but nothing else does. However I would
> not
> consider "the cow mooed" an idiom. Several very dissimilar animals
> 'bark'.
> So this would be even less likely to be an idiom. However I believe
> the real
> reason these are not idioms is that they belong to an extended set
> of
> phrases consisting of [animal + sound]. It is a very productive set
> and is
> realized by a variety of surface manifestations, "the mooing of the
> cow,"
> "the cow went, 'moo'" etc.
>
> On the other hand a phrase like "cast a spell" belongs to a very
> limited set
> of phrases consisting of [verb + spell] within the domain of
> witchcraft. We
> have "place a hex on," but I can't think of any others off the top of
> my
> head. Perhaps a perusal of the Harry Potter books would turn up more.
> In
> both these examples the verb is not carrying the semantics. One could
> argue
> that the spell travels through the air. At least the movies portray
> this
> happening visually. But a witch does not actually physically place a
> hex on
> the victim. So they would be classic idioms of the type [dummy verb +
> noun].
>
> So I would consider putting "the dog barks" as an example sentence
> under
> 'dog' and 'bark'. But I would make "cast a spell" a separate entry
> and put
> it as a subentry under 'spell'. If I was making an electronic
> dictionary I
> would also put it under 'cast' along with the idioms "cast a ballot"
> "cast
> in one's lot with" and "cast lots". But I think someone has already
> mentioned that listing all the [dummy verb + noun] idioms under the
> verbs
> would result in very long lists. So I've come to the conclusion that
> the
> best place for these idioms is under the noun that is carrying the
> semantics.
>
> Ron Moe
> SIL Uganda
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Maxwell [mailto:maxwell at ldc.upenn.edu]
> Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 5:34 PM
> To: lexicographylist at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Lexicog] Criteria for example sentences
>
>
> MessageBenjamin Barrett wrote:
> > I like the suggestion of using a sample sentence such as "the dog
> > barks at X", "the telephone rang/I answered the telephone" to
> inform
> > the user of commonly used verbs, though the danger of falling
> into
> > cliches seems real.
>
> To which I had replied:
> > My off-the-top reaction to this is that the example sentences
> > here belong with the verb, not the noun.  Seals bark, too, as
> > do children with the croup (and sometimes bosses).
>
> To which Benjamin Barrett in turn replied:
> > What do you think about a noun like spell (as in witchcraft).
> > For a beginner's dictionary, it seems like including "cast a
> spell"
> > might be appropriate in the noun entry.
>
> Yes, I think you're right that "cast a spell" would be an
> appropriate
> subentry under the noun "spell".  I'm not sure why I feel differently
> about
> this, unless it has something to do with subjects vs. objects.
> Intuitively,
> "cast a spell" seems like an idiom (or some other type of fixed
> expression),
> in a way that "the dog barks" does not.
>
> Of course, appeals to my native speaker/ linguist intuition is little
> help
> for those compiling dictionaries in languages of which they are not
> native
> speakers!
>
>     Mike Maxwell
>






------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/HKE4lB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->


Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lexicographylist/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
     lexicographylist-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/