[Lexicog] accusatory observation?

[Dr. Hayim Y. Sheynin]

Dear Mike,

The answer is in positive.

Russian: Vy uronili ruchku (you have dropped the pen)

Hebrew:  Hippalta et ha-`eT (you have dropped the pen); in the last case it is probably 50% aganst 50% ha-`et shelkha nafal (your pen fell)

In Russian the last variant is also possible, but mostly for the large objects, or for the case where there is no a subject's involvement: e.g. colonna upala (the column fell).

I hope I clarified my statement. 

Shalom uvrakhah,
Hayim

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike_Cahill at sil.org [mailto:Mike_Cahill at sil.org] 
Sent: ג 08 מרץ 2005 14:17
To: lexicographylist at yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Lexicog] accusatory observation?


Dear Hayim,

A clarification question, just so I am sure I understand you. Russian and
Hebrew can use a construction similar to English and German. But in a
casual encounter, when you see a stranger drop his pen, would that be the
construction you would use in that particular circumstance? Or would you
more naturally say something like "Oh, the pen fell"? Both are possible, I
assume, but it's the pragmatics I'm after.

Mike



                                                                           
             "Dr. Hayim Y.                                                 
             Sheynin"                                                      
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             03/08/2005 11:15                                              
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                                       RE: [Lexicog]  accusatory           
                                       observation?                        
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Dear Mike,

Russian and Hebrew languages have the same way to express
"You dropped your pen" as English and German. So in this particular
aspect they are similar to English and German, even it is widely known,
that in most of other aspects they are quite different languages.
The question here is not merely linguistic, but a stylistic one,
which languages prefer passive constructions and in what particular
circumstances.
Sometimes it is also a question of semantics. Consider Cesars' locution
"Alea jacta est." (the die is cast).The Latin language allows to say "Jeci
aleam." (I've cast the die), but it was important to stress the fact that
the die is cast, and there is no a way back.

Best wishes,
Hayim Y. Sheynin

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike_Cahill at sil.org [mailto:Mike_Cahill at sil.org]
Sent: ג 08 מרץ 2005 09:46
To: lexicographylist at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Lexicog] accusatory observation?


Hi all,
This is only marginally related to lexicography, but then we've had some
marginal discussions before...

Someone wrote to me:

   He (the teacher had one activity for us (the class) in which he dropped
   a pen, and then he
   asked us what we would say to him.  ("You dropped your pen")  Then he
   asked
   anyone who spoke another language how they would say it in another
   language,
   and what the direct translation was.  (Usually "the pen dropped").  He
   said
   that only in English and in German you would say "You dropped the pen",
   and
   that ALL OTHER LANGUAGES would say "the pen dropped".  He then went on
   to
   say that we can learn things about the culture from the way we say
   things,
   and had us come up with words to describe the two types of cultures
   represented by these two phrases.  The majority of responses had English

   speakers being accusatory, or some other unsavory adjective, and the
   other
   speakers being much more polite and sensitive.

Anytime someone claims a universal, my tendency is to say "Oh I bet I can
find a counterexample." So my question to those of you who are native
speakers of something other than English or German, what is the most
NATURAL way to make an observation of someone dropping something, to call
that person's attention to it? Not what is possible, but the most common
way of saying it. Facts first, then interpretation...

Mike Cahill





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