[Lexicog] Spanish V + O = S compounds (was Re: Lexical Relations vs. Etymology)

[Andrew Dunbar]

On Wiktionary I have been building a collection of these
terms<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Spanish_verb_plus_plural_noun_compounds>which
everybody is welcome to contribute to.

An intersting new one I've been watching in Mexico is "lava autos" which I
have seen written in one or two words in the singular and plural form,
always on signs with no other context. In Central America I saw car washes
go by several names but not this one.

Andrew Dunbar.

On 20/03/2008, David Tuggy <david_tuggy at sil.org> wrote:
>
>  OK. There are all kinds of things that are named by V+O=S nouns that are
> not imported from other countries/cultures as far as I can see; this
> construction is quite productive. Surely, you can see it in productive use
> most clearly when the item it is describing is new, and quite commonly new
> items come from outside the speech community, but I wouldn't have thought
> foreign-ness was an important feature of these compounds.
>
> Yes, certainly these compounds are a part (a prolific part) of the
> "vulgar" speech. But they are common in everybody's speech, as far as I can
> tell: highbrow as well as vulgar.
>
> Anyway, they are a fascinating topic.
>
> --David Tuggy
>
> Michael Nicholas wrote:
>
> Dear David,
>  "Imported" meaning an object is invented. The country of origin is not
> Spain. The object appears in Spain. It has to be given a name in Spanish. I
> suspect that 150 years ago, French was the language spoken by the cultured
> classes. I also suspect that if the imported object already had a word to
> describe it in French, then a calque would be applied.
>  I also think that although apposition obviously exists in Spanish it is
> now the most popular way to create a description in Spanish for an object
> which is new to the language. I believe this descriptive process is so
> popular that it is even present in what would be considered "vulgar" speech
> hence Plaza Castilla not Plaza de Castilla or "Bocata jamón" and even in
> incorrect combinations  such as "un misil Sam" Finally, I rather think it is
> not a problem of "being dense" but of my inability to explain myself with
> sufficient clarity!
> Michael
> *David Tuggy <david_tuggy at sil.org> <david_tuggy at sil.org>* escribió:
>
>  Who originally calqued from whom is of course a question for historical
> linguists to answer if they can (and perhaps in this case they can do so
> with some degree of certainty.) I am sure the V+O=S construction is very
> firmly entrenched in Spanish at this point and not foreign in any relevant
> synchronic sense I can think of. The "but" in the phrase "but 'calques'" I
> would object to. Seeing them as calques doesn't explain them away.
>
> I don't know what the phrase means, "if there is a Spanish construction
> that is visually the same it will attract 'calques'." I can think of a
> couple of ways it could be understood, and agree with at least one of them,
> but I'm confused by it.
>
> What does it mean for an object to be "imported"?
>
> Are you saying that each individual compound goes through these three
> stages, that "matamoscas" (kills-flies) 'flyswatter' was once a N+A compound
> and some day will be N+N? Surely not? So what are you saying? Granted that
> Spanish does have all three compound types (and others)—why or where does it
> help us to think of one type evolving into another?
>
> Also, I don't get the point of the examples. Granted, techo solar is N+A
> and probably best seen as a phrase rather than a compound. Guardacoches is a
> 3ps V + (obj) N, whether it is a phrase or a compound probably being
> somewhat moot (I would lean towards calling it a compound; people write it
> both as one word [5K on Google] and as two [1K incl hyphenated
> guarda-coches]). Delantero centro can be taken as N+N (but also as N+A, or
> A+A -- why not?) and is likely a phrase as opposed to a compound. What does
> Plaza Castilla have to do with it, or how is its use in popular speech
> different from its use in other genres?
>
> Sorry if I'm being dense.
>
> --David Tuggy
>
> Michael Nicholas wrote:
>
> Dear David,
> I was once told by a French lexicographer that the modern objects in
> Spanish which are identified by  the "para" initial component are but
> "calques" from the French. I was also told that if there is a Spanish
> construction that is visually the same it will attract "calques"
> I think compounds in Spanish - when they refer to objects that are
> imported tend to go through the stages of: noun plus adjective (non
> compound) verb - third person singular - plus noun and finally evolve into
> noun plus noun. This can be seen modern terms So: techo solar, guarda
> coches,  delantero centro and even - in popular speech - Plaza Castilla
>
> *David Tuggy <david_tuggy at sil.org> <david_tuggy at sil.org>* escribió:
> <snip>
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
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> 
>



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