[Lexicog] palm trees

Tue May 19 21:20:25 UTC 2009

I suspected, but didn't know, that Austronesian languages considered them as
two different things. (We lived in a coconut grove while studying
Maguindanaon, an Austronesian language.) The Austronesian languages would be
particularly interested in these things due to where they live (tropical
Pacific islands). What is really interesting to me is the reason you
give-how people interact with them. Our "scientific" classification of
living things is based on form (e.g. A 'tree' has a large woody trunk?). But
Ken McElhanon suggested to me that our perception of the physical world is
determined primarily with how we interact with it. So the question "Can we
use it for wood?" is diagnostic on the basis of our interaction. "I walked
into the *woods* to collect *firewood* and I cut down a tree so I would have
some *wood* to build some *wood* furniture." These words/senses are
connected morphologically as well as semantically. I believe other languages
use the same word for 'tree' and 'wood/lumber'. This is the kind of
ethnosemantics that I want to research. What is the underlying reason for
grouping words into a domain? Similarly, what is the underlying reason why
words develop secondary meanings? I believe the two questions are intimately
related-that lexical relations, derivation, secondary senses are all
somewhat dependent on the kinds of semantic links the mind typically forms
between concepts. If we could get a better handle on the basic building
blocks of semantics and how they are joined together, we could do a lot
better job building really sophisticated dictionaries. We could also do
lexicography much more efficiently and with better insight.

Ron Moe

  _____  

From: lexicographylist at yahoogroups.com
[mailto:lexicographylist at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lou Hohulin
Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 1:14 PM
To: lexicographylist at yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Lexicog] palm trees

You may know this, Ron, having worked on an Austronesian language. In the
two languages that I know, palms are not trees. The reason given by native
speakers is that palms cannot be used as wood, i.e. firewood, or lumber. The
word referring to trees may also refer to lumber. 

On Tue, 19 May 2009 12:12:26 -0700
"Ronald Moe" <ron_moe at sil. <mailto:ron_moe%40sil.org> org> wrote:
>This fall I'm going to Uganda for three and a half months to attempt(!) to
>elicit the emic (emic = the way speakers view things) classification system
>of the Ik language. It is remote and for various reasons there has not been
>a lot of education in the area. So I am hoping it will be minimally
>influenced by outside classification systems. One purpose of this research
>is to see where the DDP domains do not fit another language. Eventually I
>hope to get enough data to start making judgments on which domains are
>universal (if any) and how languages vary. My thesis depends on the
>assumption that there are semantic universals and universals of human
>experience that influence how various languages conceptualize reality and
>experience.
>
> 
>
>For instance research into color terms reveals a wide variety of lexemes.
>But when people are asked to point to a prototypical 'red' or 'blue', they
>frequently point to the same square on a color chart. English has its
>prototypical 'blood red' 'sky blue' and 'leaf green'. This holds true from
>individual to individual and from language to language. If a language has
>one lexeme that includes 'blue' and 'green' (what the researchers label
>'grue'), people will point to two prototypical squares on the color chart,
>one the prototypical blue and the other the prototypical green. Research
>into the physics of the eye shows that this is actually determined by the
>wavelengths of the light that the cones and rods in the eye can detect. So
>there is a physiological basis for these lexical universals.
>
> 
>
>One implication of this is that a standardized list of domains will be
>partly applicable to any language. This is why DDP works well but not
>perfectly. DDP is somewhat standardized, but in reality is basically an
>English list. What we need is a truly standardized list and an indication
of
>where languages vary. I liken the need to the role of IPA in phonological
>study of particular languages. IPA gets us started, but we then have to do
>research and analysis to determine how the phonology of our language works.
>
> 
>
>Once I've done my research in the Ik language, I will want to describe the
>process and results. I'm then hoping other people will do the same sort of
>research so that we can compare numerous emic classification systems.
>
> 
>
>Ron Moe
>
> 
>
> _____ 
>
>From: lexicographylist@ <mailto:lexicographylist%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com
>[mailto:lexicographylist@ <mailto:lexicographylist%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Leman
>Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 9:10 AM
>To: lexicographylist@ <mailto:lexicographylist%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Lexicog] palm trees
>
> 
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Greg, if you are attempting to reflect the lexicon of a language, what is
>the purpose of using a semantic taxonomy that does not reflect the lexical
>relationships of that language?
>
>It seems to me that using an "external" taxonomy to aid English readers
>creates a distorted view of the lexical relations within the language,
which
>includes taxonomic relationships.
>
>By the way, it is not necessary to have superordinate category
>classification words in order for a people to have the concept of a
semantic
>grouping, although it definitely helps. Not every concept that people have
>is lexicalized, including in English.
>
>Wayne
>-----
>Ninilchik Russian dictionary online:
>http://ninilchik. <http://ninilchik. <http://ninilchik.noadsfree.com>
noadsfree.com> noadsfree.com
>
>--------
>
>Hi Ron,
>
>I was not thinking of using a vernacular classification because the
>vernacular I am studying actually seems to have few classification words of
>levels that I can find. Also, I want my semantic domain list to reflect a
>likely folk classification of English readers because it will mostly be
>English readers who access the (English) sematic domain list. I know you do
>not want an English folk classification. Sorry.
>
><snip>
>
>Regards, Greg
>
>
>
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