Question about pronouns in English, Norwegian and Danish [longish post]

[Helge Dyvik]

Hello Tania,

I am not sure that I entirely agree with your description of Norwegian. 
A preposed definite article is usually only assumed to occur in front 
of an attributive adjective (where it is also obligatory if the phrase 
is definite and there is no other determiner or possessive):

(a) den store mannen
	'the great man'

(a) is actually ambiguous between an article reading and a 
demonstrative reading ('that great man'); stress would distinguish. 
Notice that the definite suffix is quite normal along with the preposed 
article (in contrast to what you say below under 1); omitting it would 
be more stylistically marked, although not impossible:

(b) den store mann

(b) could be used to refer non-specifically, e.g. "Den store mann som 
sier slikt, er egentlig ganske liten." ('The great man who says such a 
thing, is actually quite small.') As for your example 1:

(c) den mann

it could only be given the demonstrative reading (with stress), and not 
the article reading. Again, non-specific reference would be typical of 
this phrase ("Den mann som sier slikt..."). Your example 2, with 
definite suffix, would be the normal case with a demonstrative:

(d) den mannen

As for your 3, with a pronoun:

(e) Han mannen er snill

it is indeed possible in spoken language, although stylistically 
unexpected, at least, in the written language. (This is the reason why 
we don't analyze it in our on-line Norwegian LFG grammar on
http://decentius.aksis.uib.no/logon/xle.xml .) You are quite right that 
it expresses specific reference, but I am not convinced that the 
pronoun should be regarded as a demonstrative. It is not stressed, and 
it does not have the deictic semantics of a demonstrative. Besides, as 
I mentioned above, the fact that the definite suffix is required on the 
noun is no sure sign of a demonstrative since (1) demonstratives do not 
*require* the definite suffix, and (2) the preposed definite article 
also cooccurs with the definite suffix ((a) above).

It is not quite clear to me how you would capture the difference 
between Danish and Norwegain definiteness marking " in the a-structure 
for third person pronouns". It seems to me that the basic 
generalization is that while Danish definite determiners require 
indefinite form of the noun, Norwegian definite determiners put no 
restrictions in terms of definiteness on the noun. This of course needs 
to be elaborated to account for the finer semantic distinctions etc., 
and it is no explanation. But I do not immediately see how you would 
relate this to the a-structure?

As for modified pronouns, e.g.

(f) Han med grønt hår forsvant
	*'He with green hair disappeared'
(g) Han der borte forsvant
	*'He over there disappeared'

I would suggest analyzing them with the pronouns heading a phrase that 
is modified. Unlike "han mannen", these constructions are less 
stylistically marked and therefore unproblematic in the written 
language. (As you point out, our web grammar at 
http://decentius.aksis.uib.no/logon/xle.xml didn't analyze them, but I 
have now corrected that.) As for the spoken-language phrase "han 
mannen", however, you may be able to argue for a determiner (but hardly 
demonstrative) analysis of 'han', which also occurs with proper names 
in many dialects.

Best,
Helge Dyvik


På 21. feb. 2008 kl. 16.18 skrev Tania Strahan:

> Hi,
> I'm trying to work out what to do with pronouns, in English and the
> Scandinavian languages, and I have two main issues I want to explain, 
> but am
> a little flummoxed by.
>
> Firstly, pronoun determiners.
>
> Norwegian:
> 1. den mann 'DEF man'
> 2. den mann-en 'DEM man-DEF'
> 3. Han/*ham (*den) mann-en er snill. he/*him man-DEF is nice
>
> Danish:
> 1. den dame 'DEF woman'
> 2. *den damen 'DEM woman-DEF'
> 3. *Hun/hende damen er god. *she/her woman-DEF is good
>
> Okay, so this is somewhat simplified, but basically:
> 1. In both Danish and Norwegian, if you have a definite article in 
> front of
> a noun, you can't also have the definite article suffix.
> 2. If you have the (homophonous) demonstrative, then in Norwegian you 
> must
> have the definite suffix (morphological agreement), while in Danish 
> you can't.
> 3. But, when you have the pronoun determiner (which semantically 
> selects a
> specific referent), there's a difference. In Norwegian the pronoun is
> clearly a demonstrative, since it requires the definite suffix like 
> other
> demonstratives, and can't co-occur with other demonstratives. But in 
> Danish
> you also get the definite suffix, which you can't get with other
> demonstratives or definite articles. Also, some (Danish, Norweigan and
> Swedish) dialects allow you have to have the pronoun determiner with 
> another
> definite determiner, not just the suffix version:
>
> Vestjysk Danish: hin æ damen 'her the woman'
> Lappträsk Swedish: mett te stór hús-e 'my DEF big house-DEF'
>
> So, my questions are:
>
> 1. Just what word class do pronouns belong to, and can this vary 
> between
> even closely related languages?
> 2. Is the difference in the definiteness marking on the noun in 
> Norwegian
> and Danish a difference that is specified in the a-structure for third
> person pronouns, or is there some other way of explaining this? (Do 
> pronouns
> have an 'a-structure'?)
>
>
> Secondly, pronouns that are modified, with adjuncts(?) and PPs.
>
> Norwegian is (semi?) famous for allowing pronouns to be modified by 
> PPs,
> which English is normally cited as disallowing; witness the 
> ungrammaticality
> of the free translation:
>
> Det er han store/der borte/med grønt hår/i frakken/i midten/eg snakka 
> med i
> går... som sa at ho skulle komma til festen min.
> 'It is he big/over there/with green hair/in the coat/in the middle/I 
> spoke
> with yesterday... who said that she would come to party my.'
>
> Any or all of these options are possible in Norwegian (in this order), 
> all
> ?headed by 'han' (subject form of 3ps pronoun). Notice that *ham 
> store/med
> grønt hår with the object form 'him' is ungrammatical.
>
> So, either there's a headless NP here, which leaves the same problem as
> above, namely, what exactly is the pronoun, or the pronoun heads some 
> phrase
> that's being modified.
>
> I think a related issue is case-marking, since I find the above 'free
> translation' fine with 'him' instead of 'he' (not with an adjective, 
> but
> with PPs and other phrases). In addition, I think the following are 
> fine
> (please note that I am Australian, and I believe New Zealanders get 
> the same
> judgments as Autralians on this matter).
>
> 4. (looking at a photo): I went to school with him in the middle.
> 5. Who's coming to your party?
>    a. He/*Him is.
>    b. *He/Him.
>    c. *He/Him standing over there.
>    d. *He/Him with the funny hair.
>
> 6. ?It was him who took it. (It's 'okay', but I'd rather say just 'He
> took it' here.)
> 7. It was bloody him who went and took the last bit of pavlova.
> 8. It was bloody him with the stupid grin on his face who went and took
> the last bit of pavlova.
>
> Okay, so my point here is that pronouns can be modified in English, at 
> least
> in some varieties. My questions are:
>
> 3. How do we explain the link between the 'default' case marking and 
> the
> ability to be modified in English (and possible Scandinavian/Germanic
> languages)? (I don't think this is related to the French strong 
> pronouns, by
> the way.)
> 4. Do the rules for 'pronouns' need to be changed, or the rules for 
> whether
> Norwegian, Danish and (Antipodean) English 'ho/hende/han/ham/she/he' 
> are
> always pronouns need to be changed?
> 5. What does an f-structure for sentence like 8. look like?? I've 
> plugged it
> into the XLE Web Interface, but it just thinks that pronouns are always
> fragments (in the Norwegian version too).
>
> Thanks for any help you can offer!
> Tania
>
>
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Professor Helge J. Jakhelln Dyvik
Institutt for lingvistiske, litterære og estetiske studier
Faggruppe for lingvistiske fag
Universitetet i Bergen 
Sydnesplassen 7  	  	Tel.: +47 55582261
5007 Bergen              	E-post: helge.dyvik at lle.uib.no
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