Does language prestige correlate with community size?

Fri Apr 2 18:20:10 UTC 2004

Most of today's European standard languages were
just utilized in L-type function by powerless
peasants and city in-migrants from the
countryside  before the commercial/industrial
revolution promoted some of them to the status of
urban elites. They were initially the powerless
majority and converted the prior H-elites who had
initially been vastly more powerful: viz
Norman-French/Latin in England and German in
Prague, Lemberg, Presburg, etc.
A typology of language shift should be complex
enough to cope with various motives, social
classes and directions of shift. Any theory based
only on self-selected examples is ipso facto
erroneous and inconclusive. Joshua A. Fishman

--- Stan & Sandy Anonby
<stan-sandy_anonby at sil.org> wrote:
> Thank you for all those interesting points and
> examples!  They clearly show
> there are various situations where people learn
> minority languages.
>
> I see that my observations do not hold
> universally, but I still think they
> may apply to the sociolinguistic stance I've
> seen in Canada, Brazil and
> Africa; language shift is from smaller, less
> prestigious languages to
> larger, more prestigious ones.  People
> belonging to the larger, more
> prestigious groups, rarely learn the languages
> of the smaller, less
> prestigious groups.  The languages you mention
> are very interesting, but
> their sociolinguistic millieu is different than
> the one I had in mind.
>
> Re the examples you give of the imperial
> elites, I don't think those reasons
> exist anymore, and they don't lead to shift,
> displacing the language of the
> hearth and home.
>
> The languages you mention that, though they
> have fewer speakers, are higher
> prestige, include:
> Greek, Hebrew (both still prestige languages
> today in some circles)
> Persian
> Chinese in Japan
> French (Jews in Morocco today speak French for
> prestige reasons; many
> Anglo-Saxons under the Normans did the same;
> but anglophones in Canada
> rarely learn French, because in Canada French
> has lower prestige than
> English)
> English
>
> The examples you gave of Irish, Greek outside
> of Greece, Hebrew outside of
> Israel, Chinese in Japan, Welsh, and Irish,
> well, I don't see them having
> that strong of an impact.  In a few years, the
> learners will forget these
> languages, just like I've forgotten most of my
> Hebrew, because this language
> learning has almost no effect on the
> communities in which they live.
>
> Re Guarani in Paraguay, I don't think it's a
> case of the majority Spanish
> speakers switching to the minority Guarani
> language.  It's more like most
> Paraguayos learn Guarani in the home, and
> Guarani remains a hearth and home
> language - a diglossia situation, as almost
> nobody is literate in Guarani.
> I think that rule of crass materialism in
> Paraguay holds that Guarani
> speakers are bilingual in Spanish, not vice
> versa.
>
> Stan Anonby
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Nicholas Ostler"
> <nostler at chibcha.demon.co.uk>
> To: <lgpolicy-list at ccat.sas.upenn.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 7:21 PM
> Subject: Does language prestige correlate with
> community size?
>
>
> > At 12:02 pm -0400 1/4/04, Stan & Sandy Anonby
> wrote:
> > >I guess "lesser languages" isn't a good
> term.  I'm open to suggestions...
> >
> > In Europe, it's common to use the term
> "lesser used languages", as in
> > European Bureau for Lesser used Languages.
> "Minority languages" too
> > seems fairly objective.
> >
> > >I've only worked for SIL for 2 1/2 years, so
> I can't say my views are
> > >representative of the organization.  I've
> traveled quite a bit, though,
> and
> > >I've noticed the less prestigious groups
> learn the language of the more
> > >prestigious ones.
> >
> > This may be analytic, since the term
> "prestige" characterizes the
> > tendency of the favoured group to attract
> others to assimilate to it.
> > But greater population is not a universal
> feature of such prestige
> > groups. And even dominant groups can look
> outside themselves for the
> > source of the "true class".
> >
> > >I haven't seen any examples to the contrary.
>  I've seen
> > >isolated individuals who learn smaller
> languages, but it's pretty
> uncommon,
> > >I think.  Do you have any examples of
> larger, dominant groups learning
> the
> > >language of the smaller groups?
> >
> > Assyrians/Babylonians giving up Akkadian for
> Aramaic, from 8th
> > century BC; as a result, Akkadian, the
> traditional language of the
> > ruling class, died out.
> > Romans using Greek throughout their Eastern
> Mediterranean empire,
> > from 2nd century BC on
> > Turkic conquerors in central Asia learning
> Persian from 10th century,
> > indeed later transmitting it (as elite
> language) to India (e.g. in
> > Mughal Empire)
> > Japanese courtiers affecting Chinese in
> 8th-11th centuries (in
> > writing at least).
> > Elite learners of Greek in Western Europe
> since the Renaissance.
> > Christian clerics learning Hebrew
> > Russian elite speakers affecting French in
> 17th-19th centuries
> > Past language-switch by Ethiopian groups when
> they have changed
> > habitat/way of life (reported by Dick
> Hayward)
> > Deliberate learning of Guarani by
> Spanish-speakers in Paraguay
> > Afrikaans-speakers learning English in South
> Africa
> > English immigrants to Wales (esp. their
> children in schools,
> > obligatorily) learning Welsh.
> > Most modern learners of Irish (including many
> Americans).
> >
> > And there are many examples of imperial
> elites learning the language
> > of lower-class communities (not necessarily
> indigenous languages):
> >
> > British army officers in 18th-20th centuries
> learning Urdu in India,
> > Swahili in Africa etc.
> > Dutch administrators in 17th-18th century
> Ceylon, learning Portuguese
> > creole (widespread among servant class);
> > Dutch administrators in 17th-20th century
> Java and East Indies
> > generally, learning Malay
> > Portuguese (especially  Jesuits) in Brazil
> 16th-18th centuries,
> > learning Tupinamba
> >
> > In general, it is a remarkable fact that the
> Dutch never passed on
> > their language in their colonies (except for
> Cape Colony in Africa),
> > although they held the East Indies as long as
> Britain did India.
> > There may be a particular sociolinguistic
> stance evinced here,
> > revealed also by the rather low profile of
> Dutch among the modern
> > European languages, despite its high
> population.
> >
> > >I don't like crass materialism either -
> that's one reason why I live in
> > >Brazil and don't eat at McDonalds - but it
> would seem to me that whether
> we
> > >like it or not, this world is highly
> motivated by materialism.  It may be
> > >noble to fight these world wide trends, but
> what's wrong with admitting
> they
> > >exist?
> > >
> > >Stan Anonby
> >
> > Nothing at all, up to a point.  But remember
> always that apparent
> > "universal trends" may just be passing phases
> of the current era.
> >
> > Nick Ostler
> >
>

=====
____________________________________________________________
HOME: 3616 Henry Hudson Pkwy., Apt. 7B-N, Bronx NY 10463
home tel: 718-796-8484; home fax: 718-796-8155 (3 page limit); OFFICE tel: 718-430-3850; office fax: 719-430-3060.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway
http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/