Fw: Guarani

Sat Apr 3 12:15:21 UTC 2004

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stan & Sandy Anonby" <stan-sandy_anonby at sil.org>
To: "Bob-Kathie Dooley" <bob-kathie_dooley at sil.org>
Sent: Friday, April 02, 2004 12:08 PM
Subject: Re: Guarani


> Hi Mr. Guarani!
>
> We're toying with the idea of moving to Brasilia.  Will we see you there?
>
> I wrote this off to Aurolyn, then I thought, sheesh, what do I know?  This
> is mostly just my opinion, maybe it's out to lunch.  So, I'm blowing this
by
> you.  What do you think?  Is this on track?
>
> It was great to see the slides of the Guarani Bible presentation.  How
many
> Guaranis were there?  It's going to be great to talk to you about it when
I
> see you at conference.
>
> Blessings,
>
> Stan
>
>
>
> Hi Aurolyn,
>
> You're right, but the way I read it, it sounds like you're saying the
> Spanish Paraguayos have all learned the language of the tiny, stigmatized
> Guarani Indians.  I don't think that represents an accurate picture.  I
> think it's more like this.  Back 500 years ago, southern Brazil, Paraguay,
and
> northeastern Argentina, was Guarani speaking.  That came about because
there
> were very few men from the Iberian Peninsula, and they intermarried with
the
> local Guarani.  Their children spoke Guarani.  You can see that throughout
southern Brazil, because the placenames (named
> by the bandeirantes, the early Brazilian explorers, goldseekers, slavers)
> are largely Guarani.  Over the centuries, likely because of legislation
and more
> immigration, the sociolinguistic ecology changed, and the majority Guarani
> speakers became Portuguese or Spanish speaking.  But Paraguay is like a
time capsule.  Paraguay 2004=Brasil 1704.  So the history of Guarani in
Paraguay is unique.  The monolingual Guarani speakers
> in Paraguay, the ones who have maintained their identity as Indians, have
always been a
> different social group than the rest of the Paraguayos.  The Indian
Guarani
> they speak is a different language than Paraguayan Guarani.  These Indians
> did not mix with the Spanish hundreds of years ago, and are not part of
> mainstream Paraguayo society.
>
> Stan
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Aurolyn Luykx" <aurolynluykx at yahoo.com>
> To: <lgpolicy-list at ccat.sas.upenn.edu>
> Sent: Friday, April 02, 2004 11:14 AM
> Subject: Re: Guarani
>
>
> > Hello Stan,
> > just a note on your final comment on Guaraní.
> > Your final comment: "I think that rule of crass
> > materialism in Paraguay holds that Guarani
> > > speakers are bilingual in Spanish, not vice versa"
> > is not quite accurate. Paraguay is in fact the odd
> > case where the indigenous language has been adopted as
> > a national language (though certainly a "B" language,
> > in diglossic terms) by the non-indigenous population.
> > Ethnic Guaranies are a distinct minority, and the
> > relatively few monolingual Guarani speakers are the
> > most marginalized of Paraguay's population.
> > Nevertheless the language is quite robust, thriving in
> > its domestic functions among a mostly non-indigenous
> > population.
> > Aurolyn Luykx
> >
> > >
> > > Stan Anonby
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Nicholas Ostler"
> > > <nostler at chibcha.demon.co.uk>
> > > To: <lgpolicy-list at ccat.sas.upenn.edu>
> > > Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 7:21 PM
> > > Subject: Does language prestige correlate with
> > > community size?
> > >
> > >
> > > > At 12:02 pm -0400 1/4/04, Stan & Sandy Anonby
> > > wrote:
> > > > >I guess "lesser languages" isn't a good term.
> > > I'm open to suggestions...
> > > >
> > > > In Europe, it's common to use the term "lesser
> > > used languages", as in
> > > > European Bureau for Lesser used Languages.
> > > "Minority languages" too
> > > > seems fairly objective.
> > > >
> > > > >I've only worked for SIL for 2 1/2 years, so I
> > > can't say my views are
> > > > >representative of the organization.  I've
> > > traveled quite a bit, though,
> > > and
> > > > >I've noticed the less prestigious groups learn
> > > the language of the more
> > > > >prestigious ones.
> > > >
> > > > This may be analytic, since the term "prestige"
> > > characterizes the
> > > > tendency of the favoured group to attract others
> > > to assimilate to it.
> > > > But greater population is not a universal feature
> > > of such prestige
> > > > groups. And even dominant groups can look outside
> > > themselves for the
> > > > source of the "true class".
> > > >
> > > > >I haven't seen any examples to the contrary.
> > > I've seen
> > > > >isolated individuals who learn smaller languages,
> > > but it's pretty
> > > uncommon,
> > > > >I think.  Do you have any examples of larger,
> > > dominant groups learning
> > > the
> > > > >language of the smaller groups?
> > > >
> > > > Assyrians/Babylonians giving up Akkadian for
> > > Aramaic, from 8th
> > > > century BC; as a result, Akkadian, the traditional
> > > language of the
> > > > ruling class, died out.
> > > > Romans using Greek throughout their Eastern
> > > Mediterranean empire,
> > > > from 2nd century BC on
> > > > Turkic conquerors in central Asia learning Persian
> > > from 10th century,
> > > > indeed later transmitting it (as elite language)
> > > to India (e.g. in
> > > > Mughal Empire)
> > > > Japanese courtiers affecting Chinese in 8th-11th
> > > centuries (in
> > > > writing at least).
> > > > Elite learners of Greek in Western Europe since
> > > the Renaissance.
> > > > Christian clerics learning Hebrew
> > > > Russian elite speakers affecting French in
> > > 17th-19th centuries
> > > > Past language-switch by Ethiopian groups when they
> > > have changed
> > > > habitat/way of life (reported by Dick Hayward)
> > > > Deliberate learning of Guarani by Spanish-speakers
> > > in Paraguay
> > > > Afrikaans-speakers learning English in South
> > > Africa
> > > > English immigrants to Wales (esp. their children
> > > in schools,
> > > > obligatorily) learning Welsh.
> > > > Most modern learners of Irish (including many
> > > Americans).
> > > >
> > > > And there are many examples of imperial elites
> > > learning the language
> > > > of lower-class communities (not necessarily
> > > indigenous languages):
> > > >
> > > > British army officers in 18th-20th centuries
> > > learning Urdu in India,
> > > > Swahili in Africa etc.
> > > > Dutch administrators in 17th-18th century Ceylon,
> > > learning Portuguese
> > > > creole (widespread among servant class);
> > > > Dutch administrators in 17th-20th century Java and
> > > East Indies
> > > > generally, learning Malay
> > > > Portuguese (especially  Jesuits) in Brazil
> > > 16th-18th centuries,
> > > > learning Tupinamba
> > > >
> > > > In general, it is a remarkable fact that the Dutch
> > > never passed on
> > > > their language in their colonies (except for Cape
> > > Colony in Africa),
> > > > although they held the East Indies as long as
> > > Britain did India.
> > > > There may be a particular sociolinguistic stance
> > > evinced here,
> > > > revealed also by the rather low profile of Dutch
> > > among the modern
> > > > European languages, despite its high population.
> > > >
> > > > >I don't like crass materialism either - that's
> > > one reason why I live in
> > > > >Brazil and don't eat at McDonalds - but it would
> > > seem to me that whether
> > > we
> > > > >like it or not, this world is highly motivated by
> > > materialism.  It may be
> > > > >noble to fight these world wide trends, but
> > > what's wrong with admitting
> > > they
> > > > >exist?
> > > > >
> > > > >Stan Anonby
> > > >
> > > > Nothing at all, up to a point.  But remember
> > > always that apparent
> > > > "universal trends" may just be passing phases of
> > > the current era.
> > > >
> > > > Nick Ostler
> > > >
> > >
> > === message truncated ===
> >
> >
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