Does language prestige correlate with community size?

Sat Apr 3 12:52:16 UTC 2004

Thanks for your interesting examples, which help round out a typology of
language shift.  The languages you speak of were larger, less prestigious
groups, many of Ostler's examples were smaller, more prestigious groups.
I'm wondering if there are any examples of larger, more prestigious groups
shifting to smaller, less prestigious languages.  To me, the norm seems to
be vice versa.
Stan

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joshua Fishman" <joshuaafishman at yahoo.com>
To: <lgpolicy-list at ccat.sas.upenn.edu>
Cc: <joshuaafishman at aol.com>
Sent: Friday, April 02, 2004 2:20 PM
Subject: Re: Does language prestige correlate with community size?

> Most of today's European standard languages were
> just utilized in L-type function by powerless
> peasants and city in-migrants from the
> countryside  before the commercial/industrial
> revolution promoted some of them to the status of
> urban elites. They were initially the powerless
> majority and converted the prior H-elites who had
> initially been vastly more powerful: viz
> Norman-French/Latin in England and German in
> Prague, Lemberg, Presburg, etc.
> A typology of language shift should be complex
> enough to cope with various motives, social
> classes and directions of shift. Any theory based
> only on self-selected examples is ipso facto
> erroneous and inconclusive. Joshua A. Fishman
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- Stan & Sandy Anonby
> <stan-sandy_anonby at sil.org> wrote:
> > Thank you for all those interesting points and
> > examples!  They clearly show
> > there are various situations where people learn
> > minority languages.
> >
> > I see that my observations do not hold
> > universally, but I still think they
> > may apply to the sociolinguistic stance I've
> > seen in Canada, Brazil and
> > Africa; language shift is from smaller, less
> > prestigious languages to
> > larger, more prestigious ones.  People
> > belonging to the larger, more
> > prestigious groups, rarely learn the languages
> > of the smaller, less
> > prestigious groups.  The languages you mention
> > are very interesting, but
> > their sociolinguistic millieu is different than
> > the one I had in mind.
> >
> > Re the examples you give of the imperial
> > elites, I don't think those reasons
> > exist anymore, and they don't lead to shift,
> > displacing the language of the
> > hearth and home.
> >
> > The languages you mention that, though they
> > have fewer speakers, are higher
> > prestige, include:
> > Greek, Hebrew (both still prestige languages
> > today in some circles)
> > Persian
> > Chinese in Japan
> > French (Jews in Morocco today speak French for
> > prestige reasons; many
> > Anglo-Saxons under the Normans did the same;
> > but anglophones in Canada
> > rarely learn French, because in Canada French
> > has lower prestige than
> > English)
> > English
> >
> > The examples you gave of Irish, Greek outside
> > of Greece, Hebrew outside of
> > Israel, Chinese in Japan, Welsh, and Irish,
> > well, I don't see them having
> > that strong of an impact.  In a few years, the
> > learners will forget these
> > languages, just like I've forgotten most of my
> > Hebrew, because this language
> > learning has almost no effect on the
> > communities in which they live.
> >
> > Re Guarani in Paraguay, I don't think it's a
> > case of the majority Spanish
> > speakers switching to the minority Guarani
> > language.  It's more like most
> > Paraguayos learn Guarani in the home, and
> > Guarani remains a hearth and home
> > language - a diglossia situation, as almost
> > nobody is literate in Guarani.
> > I think that rule of crass materialism in
> > Paraguay holds that Guarani
> > speakers are bilingual in Spanish, not vice
> > versa.
> >
> > Stan Anonby
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Nicholas Ostler"
> > <nostler at chibcha.demon.co.uk>
> > To: <lgpolicy-list at ccat.sas.upenn.edu>
> > Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 7:21 PM
> > Subject: Does language prestige correlate with
> > community size?
> >
> >
> > > At 12:02 pm -0400 1/4/04, Stan & Sandy Anonby
> > wrote:
> > > >I guess "lesser languages" isn't a good
> > term.  I'm open to suggestions...
> > >
> > > In Europe, it's common to use the term
> > "lesser used languages", as in
> > > European Bureau for Lesser used Languages.
> > "Minority languages" too
> > > seems fairly objective.
> > >
> > > >I've only worked for SIL for 2 1/2 years, so
> > I can't say my views are
> > > >representative of the organization.  I've
> > traveled quite a bit, though,
> > and
> > > >I've noticed the less prestigious groups
> > learn the language of the more
> > > >prestigious ones.
> > >
> > > This may be analytic, since the term
> > "prestige" characterizes the
> > > tendency of the favoured group to attract
> > others to assimilate to it.
> > > But greater population is not a universal
> > feature of such prestige
> > > groups. And even dominant groups can look
> > outside themselves for the
> > > source of the "true class".
> > >
> > > >I haven't seen any examples to the contrary.
> >  I've seen
> > > >isolated individuals who learn smaller
> > languages, but it's pretty
> > uncommon,
> > > >I think.  Do you have any examples of
> > larger, dominant groups learning
> > the
> > > >language of the smaller groups?
> > >
> > > Assyrians/Babylonians giving up Akkadian for
> > Aramaic, from 8th
> > > century BC; as a result, Akkadian, the
> > traditional language of the
> > > ruling class, died out.
> > > Romans using Greek throughout their Eastern
> > Mediterranean empire,
> > > from 2nd century BC on
> > > Turkic conquerors in central Asia learning
> > Persian from 10th century,
> > > indeed later transmitting it (as elite
> > language) to India (e.g. in
> > > Mughal Empire)
> > > Japanese courtiers affecting Chinese in
> > 8th-11th centuries (in
> > > writing at least).
> > > Elite learners of Greek in Western Europe
> > since the Renaissance.
> > > Christian clerics learning Hebrew
> > > Russian elite speakers affecting French in
> > 17th-19th centuries
> > > Past language-switch by Ethiopian groups when
> > they have changed
> > > habitat/way of life (reported by Dick
> > Hayward)
> > > Deliberate learning of Guarani by
> > Spanish-speakers in Paraguay
> > > Afrikaans-speakers learning English in South
> > Africa
> > > English immigrants to Wales (esp. their
> > children in schools,
> > > obligatorily) learning Welsh.
> > > Most modern learners of Irish (including many
> > Americans).
> > >
> > > And there are many examples of imperial
> > elites learning the language
> > > of lower-class communities (not necessarily
> > indigenous languages):
> > >
> > > British army officers in 18th-20th centuries
> > learning Urdu in India,
> > > Swahili in Africa etc.
> > > Dutch administrators in 17th-18th century
> > Ceylon, learning Portuguese
> > > creole (widespread among servant class);
> > > Dutch administrators in 17th-20th century
> > Java and East Indies
> > > generally, learning Malay
> > > Portuguese (especially  Jesuits) in Brazil
> > 16th-18th centuries,
> > > learning Tupinamba
> > >
> > > In general, it is a remarkable fact that the
> > Dutch never passed on
> > > their language in their colonies (except for
> > Cape Colony in Africa),
> > > although they held the East Indies as long as
> > Britain did India.
> > > There may be a particular sociolinguistic
> > stance evinced here,
> > > revealed also by the rather low profile of
> > Dutch among the modern
> > > European languages, despite its high
> > population.
> > >
> > > >I don't like crass materialism either -
> > that's one reason why I live in
> > > >Brazil and don't eat at McDonalds - but it
> > would seem to me that whether
> > we
> > > >like it or not, this world is highly
> > motivated by materialism.  It may be
> > > >noble to fight these world wide trends, but
> > what's wrong with admitting
> > they
> > > >exist?
> > > >
> > > >Stan Anonby
> > >
> > > Nothing at all, up to a point.  But remember
> > always that apparent
> > > "universal trends" may just be passing phases
> > of the current era.
> > >
> > > Nick Ostler
> > >
> >
>
>
> =====
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