Meillet, Weinreich etc.

Fri Mar 12 03:33:40 UTC 2004

It would help if someone could offer the reference to Meillet that will help
identify the young Yiddish learner who coined or passed on the phrase that
Max Weinreich (and all of us) find so fascinating.  Is it indeed the first
striking assertion of the significance of power in language?
Bernard Spolsky

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-lgpolicy-list at ccat.sas.upenn.edu
[mailto:owner-lgpolicy-list at ccat.sas.upenn.edu] On Behalf Of Joshua Fishman
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 11:14 PM
To: lgpolicy-list at ccat.sas.upenn.edu
Subject: Re: Meillet, Weinreich etc.

During my graduate studies at Columbia University
(1948-1953) I was a constant visitor to the home
of Drs. Max and Regina Weinreich and their sons
(Uriel and Gabriel), both of whom were close
friends of mine as a result of our joint
activities in Yiddish youth clubs. I was
particularly careful to be there on the weekly
evening which they devoted to readings from
current Yiddish literature. Max was very
interested in my sociolinguistic views. When he
gave the lecture in which he mentioned "the
difference between a language and a dialect" he
attributed his subsequently famous remarke to "a
young man in the audience". I was sure he meant
me (since I had used exactly that comparison many
times before in speaking to him), but I was
apparently mistaken, since in the published
Yiddish version of his talk Max Weinreich
described the "young man" as a newcomer to the
field of Yiddish, which could not apply to me.
I have yet to find a documented attribution of
any other possible earlier source of this apt
comparison.
Joshua A. Fishman

-- nostler at chibcha.demon.co.uk wrote:
> Since this seems to be causing a slight
> conversation, I'll tell you all what I said to
> Trond Trosterud in my personal reply to his
> mis-sent letter:
>
> In a review I wrote of the first SALTMIL
> workshop (at LREC 1998, Granada)I began with
> the following paragraphs:
>
> http://193.2.100.60/SALTMIL/history/review.htm
>
> "The old quip attributed to Uriel Weinreich,
> that a language is a dialect with an army and a
> navy, is being replaced in these progressive
> days: a language is a dialect with a
> dictionary, grammar, parser and a
> multi-million-word corpus of texts-and they'd
> better all be computer tractable. When you've
> got all of those, get yourself a speech
> database, and your language will be poised to
> compete on terms of equality in the new
> Information Society.
>
> "This is in principle a much more accommodating
> doctrine than the old one: all that is
> necessary for the new attributes of linguistic
> dignity is some money, and a university team
> with an interest in your language, although (as
> with the army-and-navy test) it does help if
> there is some civic unity (to provide a centre
> of gravity for outliers) and if modern users of
> the language outnumber the records of its use
> by ancestors..."
>
> You can find the rest, if you're interested,
> (it's only a page or so long) at
> http://193.2.100.60/SALTMIL/history/review.htm
>
> Evidently, I would have benefited from more
> detailed knowledge of the linguists in the
> Weinreich family when I wrote this, and in any
> case I am interested to know know that the
> original conceit came apparently from Antoine
> Meillet, to whom I owe so much of my knowledge
> about "The Indo-European Dialects".  Not many
> navies in his timescale, nor offcial standing
> armies, I should think.
>
> Regards to all
>
> Nicholas Ostler
>
>
> haroldfs at ccat.sas.upenn.edu wrote:
> >
> > I don't know Ostler's use of the quotation,
> but for the record Antoine
> > Meillet first said "a language is a dialect
> with an army" - later Max
> > Weinreich used it in a talk in NewYorkCity
> (in Yiddish) and added "with a
> > navy". There was a long discussion of all
> this in LgeinSociety, summed up=
> >  by
> > the then editor William Bright. I am sure he
> can give you the exact
> > reference to it <see address above) Lycka
> till med talet! Christina Bratt
> > Paulston
> >
> > ----------
> > >From: Trond Trosterud
> <trond.trosterud at hum.uit.no>
> > >To: lgpolicy-list at ccat.sas.upenn.edu
> > >Subject: Re: CFP: FEL VIII: On the Margins
> of Nations: correction of e-m=
> > ail
> > >Date: Mon, Mar 8, 2004, 3:34 AM
> > >
> >
> > > Dear nicholas ostler!
> > >
> > > I am about to give a talk on laguage
> technology and minority languages
> > > here in Tromsצ (linked to my project
> http://giellatekno.uit.no).
> > >
> > > Connected to that I would like to give a
> quote. i believe it comes from
> > > you, in some publicaton I imagine i have
> seen you have paraphrased
> > > Uriel Weinreich's "a language is a dialect
> with a fleet and an army"
> > > into "a language is a dialect with a
> machine-readable dictionary and
> > > basic language technology resources" (as
> you see, my attempt at
> > > remembering  both quotes are quite
> inaccurate).
> > >
> > > So, do you know what I am talking about? If
> so, could you send me the
> > > quote (and I'll make it famous here in
> Tromsר)
> > >
> > > Trond
> > >
> > >
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Trond Trosterud
>            t +47 7764 4763
> > > Institutt for sprוkvitskap, Det
> humanistiske fakultet  m +47 950 7014=
> > 0
> > > N-9037 Universitetet i Tromsר, Noreg
>            f +47 7764 423=
> > 9
> > > Trond.Trosterud (a) hum.uit.no
> http://www.hum.uit.no/a/trond/
> > >
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

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