[lg policy] RE: lgpolicy-list Digest, Vol 13, Issue 37
Christina Paulston
paulston at PITT.EDU
Sat May 22 18:20:21 UTC 2010
Mea culpa, mea culpa. I will refrain from any further ad hominem (ad
feminem?) attacks but my ill tempered lines were never intended as
such, only as ( very bad, I agree) jokes. Black listing is hardly a
cure for censorship. Etc. But humour translates poorly across
cultures -- how about that as a topic for discourse analysis.
Christina
On May 22, 2010, at 8:58 AM, Harold Schiffman wrote:
> Dear Kerry and all,
>
> I am in favor of interrogating the discourses, as I have stated
> earlier. We don't have a policy of NOT
> doing so, so there's no problem with it. I would like to avoid ad
> hominem responses, and I would
> strongly recommend that we respond to the *original* message sender
> (i.e. the BNP, the US English people),
> whoever originated the odious message that I or others have forwarded
> to the list. I also don't object
> to such a rejoinder being sent to this list, too, especially if it
> will clear things up as to who the BNP (or
> whoever) are. It's true that a lot of Americans don't know what the
> BNP says or does; it hasn't reached
> our "radar screens".
>
> I think also the list and its archives are a resource that ought to be
> exploited more. I don't get that everyone
> uses the archives (since I sometimes get people asking me how to
> access them) so I'd like to recommend
> we consult them more often. See if there are topics that can be
> presented to a class there; encourage
> students to use them for research papers or whatever. (To access the
> archives, to go http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/plc/clpp
> and click on "listserv". This page will tell you how to access the
> "archives".)
>
> HS
>
> HS
>
> On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 8:55 PM, Kerry Taylor-Leech
> <Kerry.Taylor-Leech at usq.edu.au> wrote:
>>
>> That's just it Gareth. We don't analyse any discourses on this
>> list. Articles are generally posted here without comment . That's
>> because the list operates as a sort of resource or repository for
>> various discourses as you say, and not all of them to our liking.
>> There are two issues really: The first is the question of whether
>> to post up inflammatory material like the BNP stuff at all. The
>> second, is whether we critically interrogate the ideas/discourses
>> in this sort of material.
>> The general consensus seems to be that we want to see this sort of
>> thing on the list. It's useful because we can't always find it
>> anywhere else. I'm not saying we should censor this list. I'm
>> saying either we develop a statement to make it clear what this
>> list is about or we do actually get down to the business of
>> interrogating the discourses. Last rejoinder from me.
>> Kerry
>>
>> Dr Kerry Taylor-Leech
>> Lecturer in Applied Linguistics
>> Faculty of Education
>> University of Southern Queensland
>> ________________________________________
>> From: lgpolicy-list-bounces at groups.sas.upenn.edu [lgpolicy-list-bounces at groups.sas.upenn.edu
>> ] On Behalf Of lgpolicy-list-request at groups.sas.upenn.edu [lgpolicy-list-request at groups.sas.upenn.edu
>> ]
>> Sent: Saturday, 22 May 2010 2:00 AM
>> To: lgpolicy-list at groups.sas.upenn.edu
>> Subject: lgpolicy-list Digest, Vol 13, Issue 37
>>
>> Send lgpolicy-list mailing list submissions to
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>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: lgpolicy-list Digest, Vol 13, Issue 36 (Gareth Price)
>> 2. Lie to me: Research shows young liars destined for
>> greatness?
>> (Dennis Baron)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 20:31:40 -0400
>> From: Gareth Price <gareth.price at duke.edu>
>> Subject: [lg policy] Re: lgpolicy-list Digest, Vol 13, Issue 36
>> To: lgpolicy-list at groups.sas.upenn.edu
>> Message-ID:
>> <AANLkTikuZU80P0qqFKPu6IbM9HWeaa8WPRY6knsZLA2l at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> I wasn't going to chime in on this, but here's my two cents, for
>> what it's
>> worth. Kerry - I think you're getting things a little mixed up
>> here. For
>> starters, much (though not all) language policy analysis is
>> situated -
>> broadly - within the church of discourse analysis. It's not
>> possible - or at
>> least it's intellectually sloppy - just to pick and choose the
>> discourses we
>> like, and fit our arguments, and discard those that we don't, and
>> don't.
>> Disregarding discourses we don't like to hear about is also quite
>> dangerous:
>> we can put our heads in the sand, but these are discourses that
>> *will*
>> operate - in public spheres and private - regardless of whether
>> they appear
>> on this list. We have a hard enough time trying to talk about
>> social justice
>> and equality and rights - our task is made very much harder if we
>> have no
>> idea what our audience (our students, laypeople, policymakers)
>> actually
>> think.
>>
>> At the end of the day, these discourses work *precisely* because
>> they make
>> sense to someone, somewhere. Ideologies and discourses aren't some
>> 'falsehood' counter-posed to some objective 'truth'. Language policy
>> researchers who believe that 'everyone should be able to speak
>> whatever they
>> want' are as ideologically encumbered as the BNP who think that
>> language -
>> and race - should be the defining criteria of citizenship, democratic
>> participation and basic human rights.
>>
>> Our task is to try and unpick what these discourses mean, and *how*
>> they
>> operate, not referee their acceptability or otherwise. I'm going to
>> use a
>> crass analogy here, but I think it works: I can't imagine many
>> surgeons are
>> very fond of cancer, but it wouldn't be very helpful if the field of
>> medicine en masse decided to believe that cancer didn't exist.
>>
>> It's not, either, necessarily that BNP discourses have become more
>> 'acceptable' and they are posted here 'without comment'. I'm not
>> sure that's
>> the whole dynamic here: what seems to be clear is that this has
>> definitely
>> raised the hackles of at least a few people here. I don't think
>> anyone here
>> finds them 'acceptable' or thinks that this is 'free airtime' or
>> uncritically accepts them. In fact, the list serves an extremely
>> important
>> purpose *by the very fact* that it is something of a repository for
>> counter-discourses - and acts as a good barometer for what's really
>> going
>> on, out there - on the streets. I also don't think there needs to
>> be a
>> statement 'condoning material that encourages race hate, conflict and
>> discrimination' - I think that's a given. But what I do think we
>> need to do
>> is critically interrogate these ideas - and try and understand why
>> - for
>> some people - they make a whole lot of sense.
>>
>>
>> Dr. Gareth Price
>> Visiting Assistant Professor
>> CSEEES/Linguistics Program
>> Duke University
>> Durham, NC
>> 27708-2960
>>
>>>
>>> Anthea
>>> Your response seems contradictory to me. First you jump on the the
>>> list
>>> member who dared to question why material was being taken direct
>>> from the
>>> website of an extreme right-wing organisation which affliates
>>> itself openly
>>> with Nazism. You want this member not just excluded from the list
>>> but
>>> blacklisted as well. Then you want everyone to be open and
>>> unpolitical and
>>> you seem to be saying that we can't differentiate a fascist
>>> organisation
>>> from any other group. These are old arguments - they were used to
>>> stall anti
>>> racist movements in the UK years ago. Thankfully the local
>>> communities
>>> didn't listen to them and there was a time when groups like the
>>> BNP found it
>>> hard to spread their lies and hate. In posting on their materials
>>> for them -
>>> for free and without comment - you are doing organisations like
>>> the BNP a
>>> big favour. It's not about being politically correct or not
>>> offending
>>> people. It's about being careful not to give free airtime to these
>>> dangerous
>>> organisations. It would be!
>>> quite possible for this list to have a clear statement of its
>>> values and
>>> an explanation of its practices. It would make it clear that the
>>> list does
>>> not condone material that encourages race hate, conflict and
>>> discrimination.
>>> Kerry
>>>
>>> Dr Kerry Taylor-Leech
>>> Lecturer in Applied Linguistics
>>> Faculty of Education
>>> University of Southern Queensland
>>>
>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 09:31:04 +1000
>>> From: Kerry Taylor-Leech <Kerry.Taylor-Leech at usq.edu.au>
>>> Subject: [lg policy] RE: Policy on publishing racist and fascist
>>> material on the list
>>> To: "lgpolicy-list at groups.sas.upenn.edu"
>>> <lgpolicy-list at groups.sas.upenn.edu>
>>> Message-ID:
>>>
>>> <FF76F99476D1B84DB0A8A96DC7AA53DA2E5158BB20 at EXCHMB.usq.edu.au>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>
>>> I agree that it is useful (if sickening) to read these types of
>>> article so
>>> that we can "know our enemies" but with this kind of fascist
>>> material one
>>> can never be complacent. Any exposure of this kind of "literature"
>>> provides
>>> it with oxygen and airtime. These organisations know what they are
>>> doing
>>> when they write their inflammatory material and they aim to insert
>>> thmelseves into debates anywhere they can.
>>> I think it is quite wrong to attack those list readers who
>>> question the
>>> posting of this stuff on this list. Fascist material cannot appear
>>> on the
>>> list uncriticised. Doing so provides these organisations with
>>> another
>>> platform. Let's not forget that the NP ran for a seat in the
>>> recent British
>>> elections in a constituency where they would have once been run
>>> off the
>>> streets. That's how acceptable their ideologies have become. Yes
>>> post this
>>> garbage up but not without a loud and clear statement that this
>>> list does
>>> not support racist and fascist ideologies.
>>> Kerry
>>>
>>> Dr Kerry Taylor-Leech
>>> Lecturer in Applied Linguistics
>>> Faculty of Education
>>> University of Southern Queensland
>>> ________________________________________
>>>
>>> ________________________________________
>>> From: lgpolicy-list-bounces+a.f.gupta=leeds.ac.uk at groups.sas.upenn.edu
>>> [lgpolicy-list-bounces+a.f.gupta=
>>> leeds.ac.uk at groups.sas.upenn.edu] On Behalf Of Kerry Taylor-Leech [
>>> Kerry.Taylor-Leech at usq.edu.au]
>>> Sent: 20 May 2010 00:31
>>> To: lgpolicy-list at groups.sas.upenn.edu
>>> Subject: [lg policy] RE: Policy on publishing racist and fascist
>>> material
>>> on the list
>>>
>>> I agree that it is useful (if sickening) to read these types of
>>> article so
>>> that we can "know our enemies" but with this kind of fascist
>>> material one
>>> can never be complacent. Any exposure of this kind of "literature"
>>> provides
>>> it with oxygen and airtime. These organisations know what they are
>>> doing
>>> when they write their inflammatory material and they aim to insert
>>> thmelseves into debates anywhere they can.
>>> I think it is quite wrong to attack those list readers who
>>> question the
>>> posting of this stuff on this list. Fascist material cannot appear
>>> on the
>>> list uncriticised. Doing so provides these organisations with
>>> another
>>> platform. Let's not forget that the NP ran for a seat in the
>>> recent British
>>> elections in a constituency where they would have once been run
>>> off the
>>> streets. That's how acceptable their ideologies have become. Yes
>>> post this
>>> garbage up but not without a loud and clear statement that this
>>> list does
>>> not support racist and fascist ideologies.
>>> Kerry
>>>
>>> Dr Kerry Taylor-Leech
>>> Lecturer in Applied Linguistics
>>> Faculty of Education
>>> University of Southern Queensland
>>> ________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 15:58:36 -0700
>>> From: "Stan Anonby" <stan-sandy_anonby at sil.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [lg policy] The Colonisation of Britain Continues:
>>> 16% of
>>> PrimarySchool Children Do not Speak English as Their Home
>>> Language
>>> To: "Language Policy List" <lgpolicy-list at groups.sas.upenn.edu>
>>> Message-ID: <D5DBAAD41FAF403B9F0098C0C3151D13 at silq5ubwwaom4w>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252";
>>> reply-type=response
>>>
>>> Hah!
>>>
>>> Great suggestion, Christina!
>>>
>>> Stan
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Christina Paulston" <paulston at pitt.edu>
>>> To: "Language Policy List" <lgpolicy-list at groups.sas.upenn.edu>
>>> Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 11:08 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [lg policy] The Colonisation of Britain Continues:
>>> 16% of
>>> PrimarySchool Children Do not Speak English as Their Home Language
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hal,
>>>> I have a better suggestion. Just cut off from the list and
>>>> blacklist
>>> for
>>>> the future people who just want their opinions
>>>> published (like whoever Davyth and others are) and who don't
>>>> understand
>>>> that it is crucial to know what all opinions are.
>>>> Then we don't have to waste your time repeatedly with this
>>>> stuff. Keep
>>>> up the good work -- I and my students are most grateful to you,
>>> Christina
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 19:51:26 -0500
>> From: Dennis Baron <debaron at illinois.edu>
>> Subject: [lg policy] Lie to me: Research shows young liars destined
>> for greatness?
>> To: language language policy <lgpolicy-
>> list at groups.sas.upenn.edu>, ads
>> ads <ads-l at listserv.uga.edu>, wpa <wpa-l at asu.edu>
>> Message-ID: <494366EF-F7F0-47C5-98AC-E00AF82EEAA4 at illinois.edu>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>>
>> There's a new post on the Web of Language:
>>
>> Lie to me: Research shows young liars destined for greatness?
>>
>> A Canadian research team has found that toddlers who lie could
>> actually wind up more successful than those who tell the truth.
>>
>> At least that?s what the BBC claims in its report on a new study
>> which
>> proves that learning to lie represents a ?developmental milestone?
>> and
>> that ?the complex brain processes involved in formulating a lie are
>> an
>> indicator of a child?s early intelligence.? And the London Times
>> gleefully adds, ?Scientists have discovered that a child who claims
>> ?the dog ate my homework? may have a future career in the City
>> (London?s version of Wall Street).?
>>
>> Newspapers, TV, and blogs are having a field day repeating the story
>> that young liars have what it takes to succeed later in life, as if
>> precocious prevaricators could explain everything from the subprime
>> mortgage d?bacle to the Iraq War, the impeachments of Bill Clinton
>> and
>> Rod Blagojevich, and Al Franken?s critique of liars on the extreme
>> right.
>>
>> But it turns out that most of the reporting on this study of lies and
>> the lying children who tell them isn?t very accurate. To put it
>> bluntly, the media are lying about the research. Whatever you may
>> have
>> read in the papers, developmental psychologists are not claiming that
>> lying is the key to getting ahead.
>>
>> find out what they are claiming -- read the Web of Language http://bit.ly/weblan
>> ____________________
>> Dennis Baron
>> Professor of English and Linguistics
>> Department of English
>> University of Illinois
>> 608 S. Wright St.
>> Urbana, IL 61801
>>
>> office: 217-244-0568
>> fax: 217-333-4321
>>
>> http://www.illinois.edu/goto/debaron
>>
>> read the Web of Language:
>> http://www.illinois.edu/goto/weboflanguage
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>> ------------------------------
>>
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>
>
>
> --
> =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
>
> Harold F. Schiffman
>
> Professor Emeritus of
> Dravidian Linguistics and Culture
> Dept. of South Asia Studies
> University of Pennsylvania
> Philadelphia, PA 19104-6305
>
> Phone: (215) 898-7475
> Fax: (215) 573-2138
>
> Email: haroldfs at gmail.com
> http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~haroldfs/
>
> -------------------------------------------------
>
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