[lg policy] RE: lgpolicy-list Digest, Vol 24, Issue 11
Kerry Taylor-Leech
Kerry.Taylor-Leech at USQ.EDU.AU
Mon Apr 11 06:05:30 UTC 2011
Please do continue to have this discussion on the list. It is very far from boring. I would love to continue following it!
Regards.
Kerry
Dr Kerry Taylor-Leech
Lecturer in Applied Linguistics
Faculty of Education
University of Southern Queensland
________________________________________
From: lgpolicy-list-bounces at groups.sas.upenn.edu [lgpolicy-list-bounces at groups.sas.upenn.edu] On Behalf Of lgpolicy-list-request at groups.sas.upenn.edu [lgpolicy-list-request at groups.sas.upenn.edu]
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Subject: lgpolicy-list Digest, Vol 24, Issue 11
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: A request (Carol Myers-Scotton)
2. Re: A request (Christina Paulston)
3. RE: A request (Zaidi)
4. Re: A request (Christina Paulston)
5. Re: A request (mostari hind)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 12:06:13 -0400
From: Carol Myers-Scotton <myerssc3 at msu.edu>
Subject: Re: [lg policy] A request
To: Language Policy List <lgpolicy-list at groups.sas.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <4DA083F5.1000503 at msu.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
On 4/9/2011 11:53 AM, Zaidi wrote:
>
>
> Friends
> In what context(s) can a majority language be considered a minority
> language? Are there some examples?
> Many thanks and Regards.
> Abbas Zaidi
>
> _______________________________________________
> This message came to you by way of the lgpolicy-list mailing list
> lgpolicy-list at groups.sas.upenn.edu
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well, a language such as English is the majority language in UK, US,
etc. but it is a minority language in Argentina, etc. carol myers-scotton
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 15:03:37 -0400
From: Christina Paulston <paulston at pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: [lg policy] A request
To: Language Policy List <lgpolicy-list at groups.sas.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <A12BBCBE-FD5C-4AFE-9FC9-0B6E80134C0A at pitt.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
If by majority, you mean numbers and by minority subordinate groups in
a nation state, all the native languages of RSA under apartheid ( and
probably to a degree still) would be examples. ( If you are picky, you
can probably find tribal languages of less than the 3 million
speakers -- rough estimate of Afrikaans speakers -- which would then
not qualify). If by majority you mean superordinate but small in
numbers, the Afrikaners of same time is an example, the Swedes in
Finland during joint kingdom days, etc. With increasing number of
democratic countries,
and increasing clout through actual votes, the first example is
becoming less common. We (sociology of language people ) don't see
very much in the literature of split power between groups, e.g. Quebec
which had Anglo economic power and Francophone demographic, meaning
majority votes, power but the present language policies are a result
of this split power. The Francophone concern for Canadian minority
language rights has not extended to their indigenous population.
If I have misinterpreted your question, you will have to define your
terms which I suggest you do anyway. It will make for less confusion.
But I am guilty of the same; I ( and sociolinguists in general) throw
the concept of power around without much or any analysis of sources
and explication in general. If anyone has a useful definition,
analysis of power, I would love a reference or two. By useful I mean
as a concept that can do solid work on the language scene. Any poli
sci people out there? Christina
On Apr 9, 2011, at 11:53 AM, Zaidi wrote:
>
>
> Friends
> In what context(s) can a majority language be considered a minority
> language? Are there some examples?
> Many thanks and Regards.
> Abbas Zaidi
>
> _______________________________________________
> This message came to you by way of the lgpolicy-list mailing list
> lgpolicy-list at groups.sas.upenn.edu
> To manage your subscription unsubscribe, or arrange digest format: https://groups.sas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/lgpolicy-list
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 09:43:31 +0800
From: "Zaidi" <manoo at brunet.bn>
Subject: RE: [lg policy] A request
To: "'Language Policy List'" <lgpolicy-list at groups.sas.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <000601cbf720$b2ad3120$0301a8c0 at computer>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Dr Christina
Many thanks for your response. Let me be specific. Punjabi is the majority
language of Pakistan (over 60 percent of Pakistanis are native speakers of
Punjabi). But Punjabi is absent from school to university, media (print and
electronic), and all the significant state institutions. Punjabis themselves
consider it a vulgar language and educated Punjabis do not speak it to their
children. Thus, there is little intergenerational transmission of Punjabi.
In terms of both Objective and Subjective Ethnolingusitic Vitality, Punjabi
is seriously undermined. In this scenario, a Language Maintenance and
Language Shift (LMLS) study on Punjabi will take it not as THE majority
language, but A minority language. Now my question is: Does such a situation
prevail elsewhere? Are there any references? (I can think of Wolof at the
moment.)There is however, another interesting question: On what basis should
Punjabi in Pakistan be considered a minority language? This may sound
strange because I have given reasons above to support my view (that Punjabi
should be considered a minority language). But my referee is not satisfied
with this line of argument.
I request more enlightenment on it.
Regards.
Abbas Zaidi
If by majority, you mean numbers and by minority subordinate groups in a
nation state, all the native languages of RSA under apartheid ( and probably
to a degree still) would be examples. ( If you are picky, you can probably
find tribal languages of less than the 3 million speakers -- rough estimate
of Afrikaans speakers -- which would then not qualify). If by majority you
mean superordinate but small in numbers, the Afrikaners of same time is an
example, the Swedes in Finland during joint kingdom days, etc. With
increasing number of democratic countries, and increasing clout through
actual votes, the first example is becoming less common. We (sociology of
language people ) don't see very much in the literature of split power
between groups, e.g. Quebec which had Anglo economic power and Francophone
demographic, meaning majority votes, power but the present language
policies are a result of this split power. The Francophone concern for
Canadian minority language rights has not extended to their indigenous
population.
If I have misinterpreted your question, you will have to define your
terms which I suggest you do anyway. It will make for less confusion.
But I am guilty of the same; I ( and sociolinguists in general) throw the
concept of power around without much or any analysis of sources and
explication in general. If anyone has a useful definition, analysis of
power, I would love a reference or two. By useful I mean as a concept that
can do solid work on the language scene. Any poli
sci people out there? Christina
On Apr 9, 2011, at 11:53 AM, Zaidi wrote:
>
>
> Friends
> In what context(s) can a majority language be considered a minority
> language? Are there some examples?
> Many thanks and Regards.
> Abbas Zaidi
>
> _______________________________________________
> This message came to you by way of the lgpolicy-list mailing list
> lgpolicy-list at groups.sas.upenn.edu
> To manage your subscription unsubscribe, or arrange digest format:
> https://groups.sas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/lgpolicy-list
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------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 02:44:23 -0400
From: Christina Paulston <paulston at pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: [lg policy] A request
To: Language Policy List <lgpolicy-list at groups.sas.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <494C4DC3-A6D8-4125-ADD4-C09C83091851 at pitt.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
I taught at the University of Punjab in 1966. I'll try to answer your
question(s) but we better not do this on Lge Policy line and bore
every one else. I'll answer you separately. And tomorrow. CBP
On Apr 9, 2011, at 9:43 PM, Zaidi wrote:
>
> Dr Christina
> Many thanks for your response. Let me be specific. Punjabi is the
> majority
> language of Pakistan (over 60 percent of Pakistanis are native
> speakers of
> Punjabi). But Punjabi is absent from school to university, media
> (print and
> electronic), and all the significant state institutions. Punjabis
> themselves
> consider it a vulgar language and educated Punjabis do not speak it
> to their
> children. Thus, there is little intergenerational transmission of
> Punjabi.
> In terms of both Objective and Subjective Ethnolingusitic Vitality,
> Punjabi
> is seriously undermined. In this scenario, a Language Maintenance and
> Language Shift (LMLS) study on Punjabi will take it not as THE
> majority
> language, but A minority language. Now my question is: Does such a
> situation
> prevail elsewhere? Are there any references? (I can think of Wolof
> at the
> moment.)There is however, another interesting question: On what
> basis should
> Punjabi in Pakistan be considered a minority language? This may sound
> strange because I have given reasons above to support my view (that
> Punjabi
> should be considered a minority language). But my referee is not
> satisfied
> with this line of argument.
>
> I request more enlightenment on it.
> Regards.
> Abbas Zaidi
>
>
>
> If by majority, you mean numbers and by minority subordinate groups
> in a
> nation state, all the native languages of RSA under apartheid ( and
> probably
> to a degree still) would be examples. ( If you are picky, you can
> probably
> find tribal languages of less than the 3 million speakers -- rough
> estimate
> of Afrikaans speakers -- which would then not qualify). If by
> majority you
> mean superordinate but small in numbers, the Afrikaners of same time
> is an
> example, the Swedes in Finland during joint kingdom days, etc. With
> increasing number of democratic countries, and increasing clout
> through
> actual votes, the first example is becoming less common. We
> (sociology of
> language people ) don't see very much in the literature of split power
> between groups, e.g. Quebec which had Anglo economic power and
> Francophone
> demographic, meaning majority votes, power but the present language
> policies are a result of this split power. The Francophone concern
> for
> Canadian minority language rights has not extended to their indigenous
> population.
> If I have misinterpreted your question, you will have to define your
>
> terms which I suggest you do anyway. It will make for less confusion.
> But I am guilty of the same; I ( and sociolinguists in general)
> throw the
> concept of power around without much or any analysis of sources and
> explication in general. If anyone has a useful definition, analysis
> of
> power, I would love a reference or two. By useful I mean as a
> concept that
> can do solid work on the language scene. Any poli
> sci people out there? Christina
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 9, 2011, at 11:53 AM, Zaidi wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Friends
>> In what context(s) can a majority language be considered a minority
>> language? Are there some examples?
>> Many thanks and Regards.
>> Abbas Zaidi
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> This message came to you by way of the lgpolicy-list mailing list
>> lgpolicy-list at groups.sas.upenn.edu
>> To manage your subscription unsubscribe, or arrange digest format:
>> https://groups.sas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/lgpolicy-list
>
> _______________________________________________
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> lgpolicy-list at groups.sas.upenn.edu
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> signature
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>
>
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------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 05:11:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: mostari hind <hmostari at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [lg policy] A request
To: Language Policy List <lgpolicy-list at groups.sas.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <588876.97955.qm at web52802.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Sear Dr Chrisina ,
I will interested in sharing your answer with Mr Zaidi because the minority - majority dichotomy does really mean for me .
?
all the best
Dr Mostari
--- On Sun, 4/10/11, Christina Paulston <paulston at pitt.edu> wrote:
From: Christina Paulston <paulston at pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: [lg policy] A request
To: "Language Policy List" <lgpolicy-list at groups.sas.upenn.edu>
Date: Sunday, April 10, 2011, 7:44 AM
I taught at the University of Punjab in 1966.? I'll try to answer your question(s) but we better not do this on Lge Policy? line and bore every one else.? I'll answer you? separately. And tomorrow.? CBP
On Apr 9, 2011, at 9:43 PM, Zaidi wrote:
>
> Dr Christina
> Many thanks for your response. Let me be specific. Punjabi is the majority
> language of Pakistan (over 60 percent of Pakistanis are native speakers of
> Punjabi). But Punjabi is absent from school to university, media (print and
> electronic), and all the significant state institutions. Punjabis themselves
> consider it a vulgar language and educated Punjabis do not speak it to their
> children. Thus, there is little intergenerational transmission of Punjabi.
> In terms of both Objective and Subjective Ethnolingusitic Vitality, Punjabi
> is seriously undermined. In this scenario, a Language Maintenance and
> Language Shift (LMLS) study on Punjabi will take it not as THE majority
> language, but A minority language. Now my question is: Does such a situation
> prevail elsewhere? Are there any references? (I can think of Wolof at the
> moment.)There is however, another interesting question: On what basis should
> Punjabi in Pakistan be considered a minority language? This may sound
> strange because I have given reasons above to support my view (that Punjabi
> should be considered a minority language). But my referee is not satisfied
> with this line of argument.
>
> I request more enlightenment on it.
> Regards.
> Abbas Zaidi
>
>
>
> If by majority, you mean numbers and by minority subordinate groups in a
> nation state, all the native languages of RSA under apartheid ( and probably
> to a degree still) would be examples. ( If you are picky, you can probably
> find tribal languages of less? than the 3 million speakers -- rough estimate
> of Afrikaans speakers -- which would then not qualify).? If by majority you
> mean superordinate but small in numbers, the Afrikaners of same time is an
> example, the? Swedes in Finland during joint kingdom days, etc.? With
> increasing number of democratic countries, and increasing clout through
> actual votes, the first example is becoming less common.? We (sociology of
> language people ) don't see very much in the literature of split power
> between groups, e.g. Quebec which had Anglo economic power and Francophone
> demographic, meaning majority votes, power? but the present language
> policies are a result of this split power.? The Francophone concern for
> Canadian minority language rights has not extended to their indigenous
> population.
> ??? If I have misinterpreted your question, you will have to define your
>
> terms which I suggest you do anyway. It will make for less confusion.
> But I am guilty of the same; I ( and sociolinguists in general) throw the
> concept of power around without much or any analysis of sources and
> explication in general.? If anyone has a useful definition, analysis of
> power, I would love a reference or two.? By useful I mean as a concept that
> can do solid work on the language scene. Any poli
> sci people out there?? ? ???Christina
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 9, 2011, at 11:53 AM, Zaidi wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Friends
>> In what context(s) can a majority language be considered a minority
>> language? Are there some examples?
>> Many thanks and Regards.
>> Abbas Zaidi
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> This message came to you by way of the lgpolicy-list mailing list
>> lgpolicy-list at groups.sas.upenn.edu
>> To manage your subscription unsubscribe, or arrange digest format:
>> https://groups.sas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/lgpolicy-list
>
> _______________________________________________
> This message came to you by way of the lgpolicy-list mailing list
> lgpolicy-list at groups.sas.upenn.edu
> To manage your subscription unsubscribe, or arrange digest format:
> https://groups.sas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/lgpolicy-list
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
> database 6029 (20110409) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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