deontic "will"

Wed Aug 8 14:49:28 UTC 2001

Dear Volker,

It is exciting what you say about "lavado" in (1)

(1) Este carro quiere lavado.

as being really a past participle in Chiapanec Spanish, translatable as
"This car wants washed". In the rest of the republic the form works as a
noun: "un lavado" 'a washing´, "un engrasado" ´an oiling', "un pulido" 'a
polishing', etc., so (4) is perfectly fine for me and for anybody north of
Chiapas, although dialects would differ in the choice of the verb, and
"necesitar" 'need' as in (5) is for sure more natural and common in these
other areas (I don´t know Oaxaca and Yucatan):

>(3) Este carro quiere una lavada. "This car needs a washing."
>(4) Este carro quiere un lavado.
>(5) Este carro necesita un lavado.

Actually, (5) can have some sexual connotations I'm not goint to get into. I
have asumed that the Chiapanec construction was the same but with the
elision of the article, but it might well reveal what you say, it is that I
still not see compelling evidence. As for the evidence of (1) and (2)
agreeing in number and gender, I don´t quite still see why these are not
nouns, they would not be of course if you could not say (3) or (4) in
Chiapanec, I believe you can, but it would be so nice to see:

>(1) Este carro quiere lavado.
>(2) Esta casa quiere pintada.
(3) Estos carros quieren lavado
(4) Estas casas quieren pintada

Regards
Enrique

>From: Volker Gast <gast at zedat.fu-berlin.de>
>To: "Enrique L. Palancar Vizcaya" <epalancar at hotmail.com>
>CC: LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
>Subject: Re: deontic "will"
>Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 09:20:29 +0200
>
>
>Dear Enrique
>
>I am sorry to correct your correction, but I think your correction is
>not quite correct. First of all, I did not speak of 'Mexican Spanish', but
>of a substandard variety of Mexican Spanish spoken in Chiapas (which
>happens to be my wife's dialect). Secondly, In the example I provided
>(repeated here in (1)), 'lavado' is in fact a past participle, and not, as
>you claim, a deverbal noun. This can clearly be seen from the fact that it
>agrees in gender with the subject. Compare (1) and (2):
>
>(1) Este carro quiere lavado.
>(2) Esta casa quiere pintada.
>
>Furthermore, there is no verbal noun 'lavado' in Mexican Spanish. The
>nomen actionis corresponding to the verb 'lavar' would be the feminine
>'lavada', so you yould say (3), but not (4).
>
>(3) Este carro quiere una lavada. "This car needs a washing."
>(4) *Este carro quiere un lavado.
>
>Maybe your (Querétaro?) intuitions differ from my wife's Chiapanec ones,
>but I could hardly believe that (4) is good Spanish for. Or is it?
>
>Best regards
>
>Volker
>
>
>On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, Enrique L. Palancar Vizcaya wrote:
>
> >
> > Dear all,
> >
> > This is a slight correction to Volker Gast's mail on Mexican Spanish
> > concerning the "will" discussion:
> >
> > >A sub-standard variety of Mexican Spanish spoken in Southern Mexico
> > >(Chiapas) has exactly the same construction:
> >
> > >(1) Este carro quiere lavado. "This car has to be washed."
> > >(2) Quiere que vayas tu mismo. "You have to go yourself."
> >
> > The translation of (1) "to be washed" may lead to believe that "lavado"
>is a
> > past participle. It is a verbal-noun translatable as "(a)washing". As
>for
> > the deontic nuance from (2) I'm not able to say anything at the moment,
>but
> > I'd love  to see in context so to understand its behavior.
> >
> > Inspiration,
> > Enrique Palancar
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >In all likeliness, this construction is copied either from Tzotzil
> > >(Mayan) or from Zoque (Mixe-Zoque), both of which regularly use
> > >the verb "k'an" (to want, love) to express deontic modality:
> > >
> > >Tzotzil:
> > >(3) Sk'an ti cha'abteje ('You have to work', lit. 'It wants that you
> > >work')
> > >(4) Sk'an jtijtik ti jbintike. ('We have to beat our drums', lit. 'It
> > >wants we beat our pots')
> > >
> > >As far as I know, Tzotzil also has the construction "k'an + passive
> > >participle" (like in your Sardinian example "La casa vuole pagata"),
>but I
> > >would have to look at my corpus in order to find some examples.
> > >
> > >Zoque:
> > >
> > >(5) Shunba wa'y mangu tyu'nisu. ('He has to go and see her', lit.'It
>wants
> > >that go(aux) he sees her')
> > >(from Harrison et al. (1981: 156), Diccionario Zoque de Copainalá,
>ILV.)
> > >
> > >
> > >__________________
> > >Volker Gast
> > >FU Berlin
> > >Institut für Englische Philologie
> > >Goßlerstraße 2-4
> > >14195 Berlin
> > >
> > >Tel.: 030/838 72314
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
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> >
> >
>
>__________________
>Volker Gast
>FU Berlin
>Institut für Englische Philologie
>Goßlerstraße 2-4
>14195 Berlin
>
>Tel.: 030/838 72314
>

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