deontic "will"

Wed Aug 8 16:30:54 UTC 2001

Dear Enrique

OK, I admit that 'un lavado' is a perfect deverbal noun (which is
not very common among the speakers I usually talk to; they would say 
'una lavada').

I am now convinced that the question of whether 'lavado' is a noun or a
participle is by no means trivial. I think you are right in pointing to
plural agreement. The crucial question is: would speakers of this variety 
say "Estos carros quieren lavados" or rather "Estos carros quieren
lavado"?  I am not in a position to answer this question. Please note that
the variety I am referring to (spoken in the municipios of Bochil and
Soyaló; maybe I should have been more specific about that) differ
considerably from Standard Mexican Spanish in several other respects, and
it should not come as a surprise if they were special in this respect,
too. There has been much contact with Tzotzil, which is (I
believe) reflected in the following examples:

(1) Aqui no pasa carro. "No cars pass this way"
(2) Le ví su carro al Felipe. "I saw Felipe's car."
(3) Ya viene el agua. "It is going to rain"

The structures in (1) and (2) closely parallel their Tzotzil counterparts,
and (3) is a literal translation from Tzotzil.

Note that 'querer' is also used to express necessity when it takes a
clausal complement (just like in Tzotzil). I have often heard the
following sentences:

(3) Ya 'cabó el cemento. Va querer que se compre más. "The cement has been
finished. It is necessary to buy some more."

'Va querer' is impersonal, there is no subject referent.

Maybe, this issue deserves more attention than just some lines in an
online discussion.

Best

Volker

On Wed, 8 Aug 2001, Enrique L. Palancar Vizcaya wrote:

> Dear Volker,
> 
> It is exciting what you say about "lavado" in (1)
> 
> (1) Este carro quiere lavado.
> 
> as being really a past participle in Chiapanec Spanish, translatable as
> "This car wants washed". In the rest of the republic the form works as a
> noun: "un lavado" 'a washing´, "un engrasado" ´an oiling', "un pulido" 'a
> polishing', etc., so (4) is perfectly fine for me and for anybody north of
> Chiapas, although dialects would differ in the choice of the verb, and
> "necesitar" 'need' as in (5) is for sure more natural and common in these
> other areas (I don´t know Oaxaca and Yucatan):
> 
> >(3) Este carro quiere una lavada. "This car needs a washing."
> >(4) Este carro quiere un lavado.
> >(5) Este carro necesita un lavado.
> 
> Actually, (5) can have some sexual connotations I'm not goint to get into. I
> have asumed that the Chiapanec construction was the same but with the
> elision of the article, but it might well reveal what you say, it is that I
> still not see compelling evidence. As for the evidence of (1) and (2)
> agreeing in number and gender, I don´t quite still see why these are not
> nouns, they would not be of course if you could not say (3) or (4) in
> Chiapanec, I believe you can, but it would be so nice to see:
> 
> >(1) Este carro quiere lavado.
> >(2) Esta casa quiere pintada.
> (3) Estos carros quieren lavado
> (4) Estas casas quieren pintada
> 
> Regards
> Enrique
> 
> 
> >From: Volker Gast <gast at zedat.fu-berlin.de>
> >To: "Enrique L. Palancar Vizcaya" <epalancar at hotmail.com>
> >CC: LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
> >Subject: Re: deontic "will"
> >Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 09:20:29 +0200
> >
> >
> >Dear Enrique
> >
> >I am sorry to correct your correction, but I think your correction is
> >not quite correct. First of all, I did not speak of 'Mexican Spanish', but
> >of a substandard variety of Mexican Spanish spoken in Chiapas (which
> >happens to be my wife's dialect). Secondly, In the example I provided
> >(repeated here in (1)), 'lavado' is in fact a past participle, and not, as
> >you claim, a deverbal noun. This can clearly be seen from the fact that it
> >agrees in gender with the subject. Compare (1) and (2):
> >
> >(1) Este carro quiere lavado.
> >(2) Esta casa quiere pintada.
> >
> >Furthermore, there is no verbal noun 'lavado' in Mexican Spanish. The
> >nomen actionis corresponding to the verb 'lavar' would be the feminine
> >'lavada', so you yould say (3), but not (4).
> >
> >(3) Este carro quiere una lavada. "This car needs a washing."
> >(4) *Este carro quiere un lavado.
> >
> >Maybe your (Querétaro?) intuitions differ from my wife's Chiapanec ones,
> >but I could hardly believe that (4) is good Spanish for. Or is it?
> >
> >Best regards
> >
> >Volker
> >
> >
> >On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, Enrique L. Palancar Vizcaya wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Dear all,
> > >
> > > This is a slight correction to Volker Gast's mail on Mexican Spanish
> > > concerning the "will" discussion:
> > >
> > > >A sub-standard variety of Mexican Spanish spoken in Southern Mexico
> > > >(Chiapas) has exactly the same construction:
> > >
> > > >(1) Este carro quiere lavado. "This car has to be washed."
> > > >(2) Quiere que vayas tu mismo. "You have to go yourself."
> > >
> > > The translation of (1) "to be washed" may lead to believe that "lavado"
> >is a
> > > past participle. It is a verbal-noun translatable as "(a)washing". As
> >for
> > > the deontic nuance from (2) I'm not able to say anything at the moment,
> >but
> > > I'd love  to see in context so to understand its behavior.
> > >
> > > Inspiration,
> > > Enrique Palancar
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >In all likeliness, this construction is copied either from Tzotzil
> > > >(Mayan) or from Zoque (Mixe-Zoque), both of which regularly use
> > > >the verb "k'an" (to want, love) to express deontic modality:
> > > >
> > > >Tzotzil:
> > > >(3) Sk'an ti cha'abteje ('You have to work', lit. 'It wants that you
> > > >work')
> > > >(4) Sk'an jtijtik ti jbintike. ('We have to beat our drums', lit. 'It
> > > >wants we beat our pots')
> > > >
> > > >As far as I know, Tzotzil also has the construction "k'an + passive
> > > >participle" (like in your Sardinian example "La casa vuole pagata"),
> >but I
> > > >would have to look at my corpus in order to find some examples.
> > > >
> > > >Zoque:
> > > >
> > > >(5) Shunba wa'y mangu tyu'nisu. ('He has to go and see her', lit.'It
> >wants
> > > >that go(aux) he sees her')
> > > >(from Harrison et al. (1981: 156), Diccionario Zoque de Copainalá,
> >ILV.)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >__________________
> > > >Volker Gast
> > > >FU Berlin
> > > >Institut für Englische Philologie
> > > >Goßlerstraße 2-4
> > > >14195 Berlin
> > > >
> > > >Tel.: 030/838 72314
> > >
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
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> > >
> > >
> >
> >__________________
> >Volker Gast
> >FU Berlin
> >Institut für Englische Philologie
> >Goßlerstraße 2-4
> >14195 Berlin
> >
> >Tel.: 030/838 72314
> >
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
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> 

__________________
Volker Gast
FU Berlin
Institut für Englische Philologie
Goßlerstraße 2-4
14195 Berlin

Tel.: 030/838 72314