[AGAIN-GO-ER]

[Stefan Knoob]

Just one addition to my first message:

Pleased to see that the word is much older, which confirmed a suspicion that
I didn't state because I didn't check the evidence. After all the
romanticists were not particularly original in a lot of their material,
often even consciously as part of their 'rediscovery' of old 'national' and
popular myths.

Here, however, I would like to switch to a provocative proposition:
That perhaps we should consider the spread of the linguistic construction
(wordformation pattern) here more as a cultural spread of a complex concept
rather than a the spread of complex construction! Meaning that the
dissemination goes have proceeded as interaction between concept and form,
rather than simply a transmission of form.
This for the following reasons:
1. The concept is itself complex, involving repetition of an event by an
agent: PERSON WHO GOES (BACK) AGAIN.
2. The construction in question ['again-go-AGENT.NOMINALISER'] is itself
highly transparent vis-a-vis the complex structure of the concept, and
related to the verb formation pattern ['again-go'] and hence the general
['again-VERB'].
3. Therefore, if a language has this pattern, then the concept and the
source language construction are both influencing the new construction
(word) in the target language.

>From: Hartmut Haberland <hartmut at ruc.dk>
>To: Lingtyp at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
>CC: Stefan Knoob <stefanknoob at hotmail.COM>
>Subject: Re: re- [Danish]
>Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 20:12:46 +0200
>
>Stefan Knoob wrote:
>
>>German has "Wiederg?ger", although that is quite archaic, I seem to
>>remember it from 19th century novels. Don't know about the Danish, but in
>>German it does not simply mean "ghost" but that specific kind of ghost of
>>a
>>lost soul that comes to haunt the living.
>>I don't know how old and widespread it is, but it seems to me that the
>>whole
>>concept is found in discourses about the supernatural across European
>>cultures, and was probably in fashion during the Romantic period's
>>preoccupation with the spooky.
>
>Well, ODS (Ordbog over det danske sprog), the authoritative Danish
>historical dictionary, claims that genganger is Early Modern Danish (?dre
>nydansk, 1500-1700), and the first item attested in the dictionary is from
>Holberg's Peder Paars (1719-20). Certainly pre-romanticism!
>The Grimms' W?terbuch (for German) is not quite as clear on this point
>here, but all of the examples attested in it (both for Wi(e)derg?ger and
>the verb wi(e)dergehen) are from C19 or even later. They also seem to point
>towards Northern dialects (also wäärgan, werg?: East Frisian forms of
>wi(e)dergehen).
>
>
>>Would be interesting where it actually comes
>>from: although a spread from French literature to Danish/German seems
>>certainly more likely than the other way round, given the literature
>>dissemination patterns throughout the early modern period, it might
>>actually
>>originate in another European language.
>
>
>The assumption that spread always goes from bigger to smaller languages has
>a certain plausibility, since bilingualism often is more widespread among
>speakers of smaller languages, so they read/hear more of big languages than
>vice versa.. But it also works the other way round: since speakers of
>smaller languages use bigger languages actively (write/speak) more often
>than vice versa, they have more of a chance to influence the bigger
>languages. (That this second route of spread often is neglected,  is
>probably a sort of secondary effect of Chomskyan nativespeakerism:
>production by nonnatives is assumed to be faulty and stigmatized by
>definition, hence negligeable as a source of language spread.)
>
>And of course, it is all not just quantitative, cf. my non-quantitative
>definition of  'small language' as 'language rarely or practically never
>used as a lingua franca'.
>
>Hartmut Haberland
>
>>
>>>From: Paul J Hopper <ph1u at ANDREW.CMU.EDU>
>>>Reply-To: Paul J Hopper <ph1u at ANDREW.CMU.EDU>
>>>To: LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
>>>Subject: Re: re- [Danish]
>>>Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:47:15 -0400
>>>
>>>I've often wondered if the "ghost" meaning of Danish genganger is a
>>>calque
>>>on the French revenant. Just curious.
>>>
>>>Paul
>>>
>>>
>>
>>_________________________________________________________________
>>Hotmail messages direct to your mobile phone
>>http://www.msn.co.uk/msnmobile
>>
>
>



>From: Paul J Hopper <ph1u at ANDREW.CMU.EDU>
>Reply-To: Paul J Hopper <ph1u at ANDREW.CMU.EDU>
>To: LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
>Subject: Re: re- [Danish]
>Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:16:24 -0400
>
>To which should be added that Holberg was much influenced by French
>classical comedy, especially Moliere. If he introduced the word into
>Danish with this meaning, he could very well have had the French revenant
>in mind.
>- Paul
>
>
>On Wed, 27 Aug 2003, Hartmut Haberland wrote:
>
> > Stefan Knoob wrote:
> >
> > > German has "Wiederg?ger", although that is quite archaic, I seem to
> > > remember it from 19th century novels. Don't know about the Danish, but
>in
> > > German it does not simply mean "ghost" but that specific kind of ghost
> > > of a
> > > lost soul that comes to haunt the living.
> > > I don't know how old and widespread it is, but it seems to me that the
> > > whole
> > > concept is found in discourses about the supernatural across European
> > > cultures, and was probably in fashion during the Romantic period's
> > > preoccupation with the spooky.
> >
> > Well, ODS (Ordbog over det danske sprog), the authoritative Danish
> > historical dictionary, claims that genganger is Early Modern Danish
> > (?dre nydansk, 1500-1700), and the first item attested in the
> > dictionary is from Holberg's Peder Paars (1719-20). Certainly
> > pre-romanticism!
> > The Grimms' W?terbuch (for German) is not quite as clear on this point
> > here, but all of the examples attested in it (both for Wi(e)derg?ger
> > and the verb wi(e)dergehen) are from C19 or even later. They also seem
> > to point towards Northern dialects (also wäärgan, werg?: East Frisian
> > forms of wi(e)dergehen).
> >
> >
> > > Would be interesting where it actually comes
> > > from: although a spread from French literature to Danish/German seems
> > > certainly more likely than the other way round, given the literature
> > > dissemination patterns throughout the early modern period, it might
> > > actually
> > > originate in another European language.
> >
> >
> > The assumption that spread always goes from bigger to smaller languages
> > has a certain plausibility, since bilingualism often is more widespread
> > among speakers of smaller languages, so they read/hear more of big
> > languages than vice versa.. But it also works the other way round: since
> > speakers of smaller languages use bigger languages actively
> > (write/speak) more often than vice versa, they have more of a chance to
> > influence the bigger languages. (That this second route of spread often
> > is neglected,  is probably a sort of secondary effect of Chomskyan
> > nativespeakerism: production by nonnatives is assumed to be faulty and
> > stigmatized by definition, hence negligeable as a source of language
> > spread.)
> >
> > And of course, it is all not just quantitative, cf. my non-quantitative
> > definition of  'small language' as 'language rarely or practically never
> > used as a lingua franca'.
> >
> > Hartmut Haberland
> >
> > >
> > >> From: Paul J Hopper <ph1u at ANDREW.CMU.EDU>
> > >> Reply-To: Paul J Hopper <ph1u at ANDREW.CMU.EDU>
> > >> To: LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
> > >> Subject: Re: re- [Danish]
> > >> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:47:15 -0400
> > >>
> > >> I've often wondered if the "ghost" meaning of Danish genganger is a
> > >> calque
> > >> on the French revenant. Just curious.
> > >>
> > >> Paul
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > Hotmail messages direct to your mobile phone
> > > http://www.msn.co.uk/msnmobile
> > >
> >
> >
> >

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