accusative + analytical DO markers
Sergey Lyosov
sergelyosov at INBOX.RU
Sun May 26 12:09:23 UTC 2013
Dear José,
thanks a lot, this is an ingenious example. Sure we can say "a ti te quiero" etc. And I wonder if an analytical DOM is compatible with a genuine substantival case as well, in the languages that inflect sunstantives for case.
All best,
Sergey
Воскресенье, 26 мая 2013, 12:58 +02:00 от "José M. García-Miguel"<gallego at UVIGO.ES>:
>As Paolo says, DOM is a well-kown
feature of some Romance languages giving place to prepositional
marking of some Direct Objects.
>But, I guess that the examples proposed by Paolo do not qualify as
"having both the accusative case and analytical direct object
markers (pre- or postpositions)", that Sergey was looking for.
Nouns do not vary for case, and I would not say that Maria is
accusative [case] in Ho visto a Maria.
>However, personal independent pronouns and pronominal clitics
do vary for case: Spanish yo [Nominative] 'I' vs mí [not-Nominative, prepositional case] 'me' vs me [1sg clitic], and in 3rd person clitics Accusative lo(s),
la(s) vs Dative le(s)
>Thus , in Sp. Me ha visto a mi '(s)he
has seen me', the object is expressed by 1sg clitic me ,
the preposition a , and the non-Nominative mi
>
>A 3rd person accusative clitic is compatible with an a -marked
Directo Object in the same clause (this is a common pattern in
some varieties of Spanish, mainly Buenos Aires Sp., and less
common in other varieties):
>
>La he visto a Maria
>3.ACC.F have seen PREP Maria
>'I have seen Maria'
>
>This example has "both the accusative case [in the clitic la ]
and an analytical direct object marker [preposition a ]",
but the accusative case is not in the name Maria.
>
>All best,
>Jose M. Garcia-Miguel
>University of Vigo
>
>El 26/05/2013 11:53, Paolo Ramat escribió:
>>Dear All,
>>DOM as obligatory marking of Direct Object (DO) is a
well-known feature of (South)Italian dialects and other
Romance varieties (e.g. Catalan)
>>I wouldn’t consider Ich gehe durch den Gang as
an ex. of DO. As Sergey rightly states, we have here a PP
specifying the notion of ‘gehen’.
>>But when you have Ho visto a Maria ‘I saw Mary’ instead of standard Italian Ho visto
Maria, Catal . les
monges no
estimen a les nenes ‘the
nuns don’t lik the girls’, a is a real DO marker and the construction is Nomin./Accus.
The use of DOM is subject to certain constraints: the OBJ
has to be [+human] or, at least, [+anim],[+definite] etc.
>>References: A. Ledgeway, From Latin to Romance ,
OUP 2012. Iemmolo, Giorgio (2009), La
marcatura differenziale dell’oggetto in siciliano
antico. Arch. Glottol. Ital. 94: 185- 225; Iemmolo, Giorgio and Gerson Klumpp (in
preparation). Differential Object Marking:
theoretical and empirical issues . Special issue
of Linguistics .
>>
>>All best
>>Paolo
>>
>>From: Sergey Lyosov
>>Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 9:20 PM
>>To: LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
>>Subject: Re: accusative + analytical DO
markers
>>
>>
>>Dear Ewa,
>>thanks a lot!
>>Your Polish example
is as follows:
>>
>>- zaatakować ‘attack, assault’
+ NPACC
>>- napaść ‘attack, assault’
+ preposition na with a
NPACC (a grammaticalized allative construction).
>>The cognate Russian
verbs have the same government:
>>atakovat' ‘attack,
assault’ + NPACC
>>napast' ‘attack, assault’ + preposition na with a
NPACC
>>
>>Our colleague Scott
T. Shell suggests me (within this thread) a
similar example from
>>German:
>>
>>Den Mann
habe ich gesehen.
>>DEF.ACC man AUX
1SG.NOM saw
>>'I say the man.'
>>
>>Ich gehe
durch den Gang
>>1SG.NOM go through
DEF.ACC hallway
>>'I go through the hallway.'
>> Yet neither Polish/Russian na nor German durch are Direct
Object Markers pure and simple, they both retain their
meanings as lative/locative prepositions. What I am
looking for is a “pure” and (under certain conditions)
obligatory Direct Object Marker (like `et in Hebrew)
which synchronically has no other (more concrete)
meanings. I wonder if this kind of DOM is at all
compatible with ACC (which would amount to double
marking of the Direct Object).
>>I will address your Coptic
example in the next email.
>> All best,
>> Sergey
>>
>>Суббота, 25 мая 2013, 16:37 UTC от "Zakrzewska, E.D." <E.D.Zakrzewska at uva.nl> :
>>>Dear Sergey,
>>>
>>>A
good example is Polish, compare:
>>>- zaatakować ‘attack, assault’ + NPACC
>>>- napaść ‘attack, assault’ + preposition na with
a NPACC (a grammaticalized allative
construction).
>>>
>>>Another
example may be Coptic (Afroasiatic, the
final stage of Ancient Egyptian). In Coptic
there are two strategies to mark the direct
object: head-marking and dependent-marking.
Head-marking involves the use of the
so-called construct
or pronominal state allomorph of the verb to
which a nominal, respectively pronominal
direct object is attached. When the verb
appears in the absolute state allomorph, dependent-marking
of the object by means of a preposition is
required. Several prepositions can occur in
this function, of which n- (dedicated preposition) and e- (grammaticalization of the allative) are
most important.
>>>Basic
information about Coptic grammar can be
found in Reintges
C.H., Coptic Egyptian (Sahidic dialect):
a learner's grammar , Köln:
Köppe, 2004. I’m currently working on a
comprehensive article on transitivity in
Coptic, to be published in the Proceedings
of the 10th International Congress of
Coptic Studies in Rome and I can send
you a copy soon.
>>>
>>>Best
regards,
>>>Ewa
Zakrzewska
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>Van: Discussion List for ALT
[ LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org ] namens
Sergey Lyosov [ sergelyosov at inbox.ru ]
>>>Verzonden: vrijdag 24 mei 2013 19:35
>>>To: LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org
>>>Onderwerp: accusative + analytical DO
markers
>>>
>>>Dear colleagues,
>>>Do we know of languages that have both the
accusative case and analytical direct object
markers (pre- or postpositions)?
>>>Lots of thanks,
>>>Sergey
>>>Dr. Sergey Loesov
>>>Oriental Institute
>>>Russian State University for the Humanities
>>>6 Miusskaya pl. Moscow 125267, Russia.
>>>
>
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