[Lingtyp] A terminological quandary: 'library studies'

Tue Nov 24 16:31:11 UTC 2020

Yes, I like this too. Like some others, I find the term 'mining'
exploitative.

Marianne

On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 8:26 PM Bill Palmer <bill.palmer at newcastle.edu.au>
wrote:

> I very much like ‘grammar sampling’. The published grammars form the
> sample from which we take our data.
>
>
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> Associate Professor Bill Palmer
>
> University of Newcastle
>
> Lead Investigator, *OzSpace* project
>
> *Landscape, language and culture in Indigenous Australia.*
>
> Vice-President, Australian Linguistics Society
>
>
>
> *From:* Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> *On Behalf Of
> *Bohnemeyer, Juergen
> *Sent:* Tuesday, 24 November 2020 3:22 PM
> *To:* <LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org> <
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Lingtyp] A terminological quandary: 'library studies'
>
>
>
> How about ‘grammar sampling’ instead of ‘grammar mining’?
>
> Also, there is always the option of using a more descriptive phrase. For
> example:
>
> ‘A study based on a compilation of existing (language) descriptions’, or
> shorter (if less precise) ‘a grammar compilation study’.
> ‘A study based on a sample of existing (language) descriptions’, or
> shorter (if less precise) ‘a grammar sampling study’.
>
> Best — Juergen
>
> > On Nov 23, 2020, at 7:39 PM, Maia Ponsonnet <maia.ponsonnet at uwa.edu.au>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hello, I follow Bill and other about armchairs, but I don't mind the
> mining metaphor: one mines what is precious, think gold, diamonds...
> Perhaps my native French is an influence here: "une mine d'information".
> > Cheers to all, Maïa
> >
> > Dr Maïa Ponsonnet
> > Senior Lecturer and Chair, Discipline of Linguistics
> > Social Sciences Building, Room 2.36
> > Faculty of Arts, Business, Law and Education
> > The University of Western Australia
> > 35 Stirling Hwy, Perth, WA (6009), Australia
> > P. +61 (0) 8 6488 2870 - M. +61 (0) 468 571 030
> >
> >
> > From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of
> Bill Palmer <bill.palmer at newcastle.edu.au>
> > Sent: Tuesday, 24 November 2020 6:58 AM
> > To: chao.li at aya.yale.edu <chao.li at aya.yale.edu>; Bohnemeyer, Juergen <
> jb77 at buffalo.edu>
> > Cc: <LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org> <
> LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] A terminological quandary: 'library studies'
> >
> > Hi all
> >
> > For me armchair anything denotes amateurism, dilettantism, and claims
> extrapolated beyond what is empirically supported. An armchair expert is
> someone who makes pronouncements about something without any direct
> experience of it.
> >
> > I don’t love the mining metaphor because to me it suggests using data
> without the level of consideration and understanding of the empirical facts
> that careful comparative work based on grammars or whatever entails, as
> might be done by a machine algorithm. It suggests to me a degree of blunt
> force. Grammar mining is a really useful and important component, but the
> term doesn’t do justice to the full nature of what typological and
> comparative research involves.
> >
> > Having said all that, no really ideal term springs to mind instead.
> Library study also doesn’t entirely do justice to the work, but seems a bit
> better to me.
> >
> > Cheers
> > Bill
> >
> > Associate Professor Bill Palmer
> > University of Newcastle
> > Lead Investigator, OzSpace project
> > Landscape, language and culture in Indigenous Australia.
> > Vice-President, Australian Linguistics Society
> >
> > From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> On Behalf Of
> Chao Li
> > Sent: Tuesday, 24 November 2020 3:35 AM
> > To: Bohnemeyer, Juergen <jb77 at buffalo.edu>
> > Cc: <LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org> <
> LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] A terminological quandary: 'library studies'
> >
> > What about "grammar perusing" (or "grammar perusal")?
> >
> > Best,
> > Chao
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 1:54 AM Bohnemeyer, Juergen <jb77 at buffalo.edu>
> wrote:
> > ‘Armchair linguistics’ to me denotes the kind of study that is heavy on
> the theorizing, light on the data. I find it difficult to see how that
> would intersect with anything I would want to consider typology. (Perhaps
> the kind of study in the defunct GB/P&P framework that would look at two or
> three — likely related — languages and postulate a parameter would
> qualify.)
> >
> > I get the negative vibe attached to mining (though miners may beg to
> differ), but to me (speaking as someone who’s married to a computer
> scientist), ‘data mining’ doesn’t have a negative connotation beyond the
> vague aura of scariness attached to all things IT/AI these days.
> >
> > Which adds to the vague aura of scariness and depression (no pun
> intended) attached to mines.
> >
> > Hm.
> >
> > Juergen
> >
> > > On Nov 23, 2020, at 1:16 AM, Nicholas Evans <nicholas.evans at anu.edu.au>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > I agree with Martin about grammars being inexhaustible and priceless
> goldmines, but with Johanna about 'grammar-mining' sounding derogatory. I
> think that 'data-mining' still has connotations of 'strip-mining' and
> exploitative practices – though happy to be overruled if I am being
> oversensitive about that. On the other hand for me 'library' remains very
> positive (and also allows the possibility of thoughtful reading and
> reflection of the contents of each grammar, rather than just sticking them
> all in some python script)
> > > Best Nick
> > >
> > >
> > > Nicholas (Nick) Evans
> > >
> > > Director, CoEDL (ARC Centre of Excellence for the Dynamics of Language)
> > > Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
> > > Coombs Building, Fellows Road
> > > CHL, CAP, Australian National University
> > >
> > > nicholas.evans at anu.edu.au
> > >
> > > I acknowledge the Ngunnawal people as custodians of the land on which
> I work, and pay my respects to their elders, past, present and emerging.
> Their custodianship that has never been ceded.
> > >
> > > From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf
> of Martin Haspelmath <haspelmath at shh.mpg.de>
> > > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2020 5:00 PM
> > > To: Johanna Nichols <johanna at berkeley.edu>
> > > Cc: <LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org> <
> LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> > > Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] A terminological quandary: 'library studies'
> > >
> > > Every grammar is an inexhaustible goldmine that deserves to be
> exploited.
> > >
> > > „Armchair linguistics“ sounds derogatory to me, but what‘s the problem
> with „grammar mining“?
> > >
> > > In the 20th century, grammar mining studies had to be carried out in
> libraries. But nowadays all you need is access to the internet and some
> useful websites.
> > >
> > > Is there an alternative that‘s still better?
> > >
> > > Martin
> > >
> > > > Am 23.11.2020 um 06:42 schrieb Johanna Nichols <johanna at berkeley.edu
> >:
> > > >
> > > > I don't know -- to me both "grammar mining" and "armchair
> linguistics"
> > > > sound derogatory. We all want grammar writing to be taken seriously
> > > > in the linguistics reward system, so use of those grammars is an
> > > > honorable undertaking and deserves an honorable label.
> > > >
> > > > Johanna Nichols
> > > >
> > > >> On Sun, Nov 22, 2020 at 9:17 PM Ian Maddieson <ianm at berkeley.edu>
> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Perhaps the term ‘armchair linguistics’ would have won the poll.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On Nov 22, 2020, at 20:15, Bohnemeyer, Juergen <jb77 at buffalo.edu>
> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Dear all — Many thanks to everyone who participated in my poll!
> > > >>
> > > >> There were 39 responses. Exactly one third, 13, recognized ‘library
> study’ as an established term. However, nearly half of those who did
> proposed what they considered better alternatives. Meanwhile, two thirds of
> respondents did not recognize ‘library study’ as a technical term.
> > > >>
> > > >> Of the suggested alternatives, the one that stood out for me is
> ‘grammar mining’. Setting aside my lack of enthusiasm for ‘grammar’ as a
> term for language descriptions, ‘grammar mining’ seems to invoke just the
> right concept and has the edge of pizzaz/sexiness.
> > > >>
> > > >> Best — Juergen
> > > >>
> > > >> On Oct 21, 2020, at 7:40 PM, Bohnemeyer, Juergen <jb77 at buffalo.edu>
> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Dear colleagues — The purpose of this message is not to start
> another debate on terminology. Rather, I’d simply like to gather data on
> how this community views a particular terminological choice. I created a
> survey that people can take anonymously, which should take them all of 60
> seconds. I’ll be happy to report the results on this board. Here is the
> link to the survey:
> > > >>
> > > >> https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/G953WP7
> > > >>
> > > >> The issue concerns the term ‘library study’, when used to designate
> any typological research design that draws primarily on existing language
> descriptions. I have long considered ‘library study’ to be a
> well-established technical term for this concept, and I’m unaware of
> equally well-established terminological alternatives.
> > > >>
> > > >> Within typology, ‘library studies’ in this sense would contrast
> with studies based on
> > > >>
> > > >> * typological databases such as WALS and AutoTyp;
> > > >>
> > > >> * primary data (prevalent in semantic typology; occurs more
> marginally elsewhere);
> > > >>
> > > >> * expert questionnaires (as opposed to questionnaires administered
> to speakers and designed for primary data collection; e.g. Comrie & Smith
> 1977, as opposed to Dahl 1985);
> > > >>
> > > >> * anything else?
> > > >>
> > > >> I’m just trying to find out whether I’m an outlier.
> > > >>
> > > >> Note, this is not about whether one finds the label fitting or
> unfortunate. All I’m trying to determine is whether to an audience of
> typologists it gets the intended meaning across.
> > > >>
> > > >> Thanks! — Juergen
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >> Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)
> > > >> Professor, Department of Linguistics
> > > >> University at Buffalo
> > > >>
> > > >> Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus
> > > >> Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260
> > > >> Phone: (716) 645 0127
> > > >> Fax: (716) 645 3825
> > > >> Email: jb77 at buffalo.edu
> > > >> Web: http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/
> > > >>
> > > >> Office hours will be held by Zoom. Email me to schedule a call at
> any time. I will in addition hold Tu/Th 4-5pm open specifically for remote
> office hours.
> > > >>
> > > >> There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light Gets In
> > > >> (Leonard Cohen)
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >> Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)
> > > >> Professor, Department of Linguistics
> > > >> University at Buffalo
> > > >>
> > > >> Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus
> > > >> Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260
> > > >> Phone: (716) 645 0127
> > > >> Fax: (716) 645 3825
> > > >> Email: jb77 at buffalo.edu
> > > >> Web: http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/
> > > >>
> > > >> Office hours will be held by Zoom. Email me to schedule a call at
> any time. I will in addition hold Tu/Th 4-5pm open specifically for remote
> office hours.
> > > >>
> > > >> There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light Gets In
> > > >> (Leonard Cohen)
> > > >>
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> Lingtyp mailing list
> > > >> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> > > >> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Ian Maddieson
> > > >>
> > > >> Department of Linguistics
> > > >> University of New Mexico
> > > >> MSC03-2130
> > > >> Albuquerque NM 87131-0001
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> Lingtyp mailing list
> > > >> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
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> > > > _______________________________________________
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> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)
> > Professor, Department of Linguistics
> > University at Buffalo
> >
> > Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus
> > Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260
> > Phone: (716) 645 0127
> > Fax: (716) 645 3825
> > Email: jb77 at buffalo.edu
> > Web: http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/
> >
> > Office hours will be held by Zoom. Email me to schedule a call at any
> time. I will in addition hold Tu/Th 4-5pm open specifically for remote
> office hours.
> >
> > There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light Gets In
> > (Leonard Cohen)
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Lingtyp mailing list
> > Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>
>
> --
> Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)
> Professor, Department of Linguistics
> University at Buffalo
>
> Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus
> Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260
> Phone: (716) 645 0127
> Fax: (716) 645 3825
> Email: jb77 at buffalo.edu
> Web: http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/
>
> Office hours will be held by Zoom. Email me to schedule a call at any
> time. I will in addition hold Tu/Th 4-5pm open specifically for remote
> office hours.
>
> There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light Gets In
> (Leonard Cohen)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Lingtyp mailing list
> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
> _______________________________________________
> Lingtyp mailing list
> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>
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