[Lingtyp] Grammatical marking of insults (?)

Fri Dec 17 11:49:48 UTC 2021

Grammatical Marking of Insults.

Dear All,
my impression is that all terms may be used ironically (and finally
insulting) according to the conversational situation even without
specifications such as *de mes fesses *and the like : *Che genio ! Hai
capito solo ora.   Sei un vero genio, finalmente hai capito!* lit.:* '*What
a genius ! You understand only now', 'You're really a genius, Finally
you've understood'. The meaning of the sentence could be paraphrased with
"How idiot/stupid you're! You got/get it only now."
By the way: There exist, at least in Italian, some derogatory idioms: *Sì,
premio Nobel dei miei stivali !  *Yes, Nobel prize of my boots !

Best season's greetings to all (and this is not ironically meant, in spite
of 'delta' and 'omikron' viruses !!...)

*Could I ask someone from this thread to send me the entire thread ?
Stupidly, I destroyed the first mails Thanks in advance*

Paolo

piazzetta Arduino 11 - I 27100 Pavia
##39 0382 27027
347 044 98 44

Il giorno ven 17 dic 2021 alle ore 12:05 Nigel Vincent <
nigel.vincent at manchester.ac.uk> ha scritto:

> I can't speak for the French but in English there is no ironic implication
> that I'm aware of. If I've been struggling with a problem and then a
> colleague suggests a solution I can say 'You genius! I hadn't thought of
> that' with no sense of irony. Similarly a teacher might say to one of the
> class 'You clever girl/boy!'
> Best
> Nigel
>
>
> Professor Nigel Vincent, FBA MAE
> Professor Emeritus of General & Romance Linguistics
> The University of Manchester
>
> Linguistics & English Language
> School of Arts, Languages and Cultures
> The University of Manchester
>
>
>
>
> https://www.research.manchester.ac.uk/portal/en/researchers/nigel-vincent(f973a991-8ece-453e-abc5-3ca198c869dc).html
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of
> Maia Ponsonnet <maia.ponsonnet at uwa.edu.au>
> *Sent:* 17 December 2021 11:41 AM
> *To:* MM Jocelyne Fernandez <mmjocelynefern at gmail.com>;
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Lingtyp] Grammatical marking of insults (?)
>
> Hi Jocelyne,
>
> It seems to me that in your examples, although the term "génie" is
> inherently positive, the addition of "à la con" or "de mes fesses" renders
> it negative. I think this works with any word.
>
> In fact "de mes fesses" in my view can also imply a sense of usurpation,
> i.e. the person is not a true "x". E.g. "ouais, un copain de mes fesses" "a
> friend of my ass", means that the person is not a good friend.
>
> But "Espèce de copain" doesn't work at all unless you're making a joke.
> (Which I would have thought was the same in English, "you friend!"
> jokingly accusing someone to be a friend; or "you genius" in the same way;
> but maybe not.)
>
> Cheers and many thanks for these interesting discussions,
> Maïa
>
>
> Dr Maïa Ponsonnet
> Senior Lecturer, Discipline of Linguistics
>
> Graduate Research Coordinator, School of Social Sciences
>
> Building M257, Room 2.36
>
> The University of Western Australia
> 35 Stirling Hwy, Perth, WA (6009), Australia
> P.  +61 (0) 8 6488 2870 - M.  +61 (0) 468 571 030
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of
> MM Jocelyne Fernandez <mmjocelynefern at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, 17 December 2021 12:53 PM
> *To:* lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> >
> *Subject:* Re: [Lingtyp] Grammatical marking of insults (?)
>
>
> @Maia, Paolo, Riccardo
>
> Of course, when you start looking for insult of colloquial language,
> counter-examples are numerous.
>
> As for French, I would not assert that "espèce de" can never be used with
> a positive substantive – provided it is immediately followed by another
> expression that contradicts it, e.g.
>
>     - Espèce de (petit) génie à la con!
>
>        ≈         (small)  crummy genius!
>
> - Espèce de génie de mes fesses!
>
>       ≈         genius of my buttocks!
>
> (Sorry for the over-familiarity, but such expressions can be found in
> spontaneous corpora, either ironical or referring to a previous co-text.)
>
> Maybe it is a further argument for considering  that "espèce de" is a
> lexical construction.
>
>     Best wishes from Quartier Latin
>
>     MMJocelyne Fernandez
>
>
> Le 15/12/2021 à 12:17, Volker Gast a écrit :
>
> If you need some type of theoretical framework for this study, you could
> use Jonathan Culpeper's work on impoliteness, see for instance this paper
> on 'impoliteness strategies':
>
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/300633947_Impoliteness_Strategies
> <https://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fpublication%2F300633947_Impoliteness_Strategies&data=04%7C01%7Cmaia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au%7C237a5407f6484670e3ba08d9c11958d9%7C05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226%7C0%7C0%7C637753136900891580%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=cVZcjt%2F86Qr6NaLXNpu8Itvnv9%2BoGAyFNbkdgP48ERE%3D&reserved=0>
>
> Culpeper distinguishes eleven types of insults in Section 8 on
> 'impoliteness triggers' (referring to his own earlier work from 2011). He
> extended Brown/Levinston-style politeness theory to impoliteness --
> communicative actions intended to damage someone's (positive) face.
>
> I doubt that languages have grammaticalized ways of expressing, for
> instance, positive impoliteness, in the same way as they encode positive
> politeness (e.g. in the V/T-forms of European languages). Perhaps you could
> consider the use of T-forms in a V-context as impolite (and potentially
> offensive). I wouldn't regard the types of structures found in
> 'personalized negative vocatives' (Culpeper's term) "grammaticalized". I
> think they rather belong in the lexicon, but that's obviously a matter of
> definition.
>
> Volker
>
>
> On 15.12.21 11:39, Riccardo Giomi wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
> Thank you very much for a nice set of data and references. This will be
> extremely useful.
>
> I will reply to some of you privately, asking for further
> comments/data/references. In the mean time, any further feedback is of
> course more than welcome!
>
> @Maia & Paolo: I agree with Paolo that *pezzo di / espèce de* are not
> grammaticalized, although not for the reason he mentions. After all the
> working hypothesis is precisely that languages can have grammaticalized
> means of marking a speech act as an insult, so, according to this
> hypothesis, the fact that *pezzo di X* never occurs with positively
> connotated epithets does not entail that the construction is not
> grammaticalized.
> A different type of argument for regarding these as lexical constructions
> is the fact that premodifying adjectives must agree with *pezzo *and not
> with the epithet (and I guess the same goes for French *espèce*), cf. *brutto
> pezzo di cretina*, as opposed to **brutta pezzo di cretina*. This
> suggests that *pezzo *is the head of the construction; if it had been a
> grammaticalized element, I suppose agreement would have been with the
> epithet. At any rate, these nouns are not really reserved for marking a
> speech act as an insult -- they can also occur in other types of speech
> act, e.g. declarative *Quel pezzo di X mi ha rubato la bici * (roughly,
> 'That dirty X stole my bike').
>
> Best wishes to all,
> Riccardo
>
> Paolo Ramat <paoram at unipv.it> escreveu no dia quarta, 15/12/2021 à(s)
> 11:03:
>
> In Italian too *pezzo di X  *'espèce de X' , as in *pezzo di idiota *and
> the very insulting, derogating* (*but very much used)* pezzo di merda, *appears
> just in derogating expressions: you will never hear * *pezzo di  genio, *
> nor* *pezzo di benefattore !  *This is, I think, an argument for not
> considering  the construct *'pezzo di X ' *as belonging to the grammar
> (Maia).
>
> Paolo
>
> Prof. Dr. Paolo Ramat
> Accademia Nazionale dei Lincei, Socio corrispondente
> 'Academia Europaea'
> 'Societas Linguistica Europaea', Honorary Member
> Università di Pavia (retired)
> Istituto Universitario di Studi Superiori (IUSS Pavia) (retired)
>
> piazzetta Arduino 11 - I 27100 Pavia
> ##39 0382 27027
> 347 044 98 44
>
>
> Il giorno mer 15 dic 2021 alle ore 07:48 Nigel Vincent <
> nigel.vincent at manchester.ac.uk> ha scritto:
>
> Maia is of course right that the English 'you X' is a way of insulting
> people but that depends on X being an insult. The same construction can be
> used to praise: 'you genius', 'you darling', etc.
> Nigel
>
>
> Professor Nigel Vincent, FBA MAE
> Professor Emeritus of General & Romance Linguistics
> The University of Manchester
>
> Linguistics & English Language
> School of Arts, Languages and Cultures
> The University of Manchester
>
>
>
>
> https://www.research.manchester.ac.uk/portal/en/researchers/nigel-vincent(f973a991-8ece-453e-abc5-3ca198c869dc).html
> <https://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.research.manchester.ac.uk%2Fportal%2Fen%2Fresearchers%2Fnigel-vincent(f973a991-8ece-453e-abc5-3ca198c869dc).html&data=04%7C01%7Cmaia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au%7C237a5407f6484670e3ba08d9c11958d9%7C05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226%7C0%7C0%7C637753136900891580%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=kqwRSP3KGR9vpQwQCde2gbu2OwvMXmt%2FOJWilOI2FDs%3D&reserved=0>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of
> Maia Ponsonnet <maia.ponsonnet at uwa.edu.au>
> *Sent:* 15 December 2021 1:54 AM
> *To:* Jussi Ylikoski <jussi.ylikoski at oulu.fi>;
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Lingtyp] Grammatical marking of insults (?)
>
> Hello,
>
> Doesn't the English "you idiot" (you [insult]) qualify as an example?
> Copula-free adposition is not standard in English predication, and it
> seems largely limited to second person sing and derogatory adjectives?
>
> French has "espèce d'idiot" - not sure whether it qualifies as grammatical
> or lexical.
>
> Cheers, Maïa
>
> Dr Maïa Ponsonnet
> Senior Lecturer, Discipline of Linguistics
>
> Graduate Research Coordinator, School of Social Sciences
>
> Building M257, Room 2.36
>
> The University of Western Australia
> 35 Stirling Hwy, Perth, WA (6009), Australia
> P.  +61 (0) 8 6488 2870 - M.  +61 (0) 468 571 030
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of
> Jussi Ylikoski <jussi.ylikoski at oulu.fi>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, 15 December 2021 6:09 AM
> *To:* lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> >
> *Subject:* Re: [Lingtyp] Grammatical marking of insults (?)
>
> Dear Riccardo and all,
>
> D’Avis and Meibauer's paper "Du Idiot! Din idiot! Pseudo-vocative
> constructions and insults in German (and Swedish)" (
> https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/9783110304176.189/html
> <https://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.degruyter.com%2Fdocument%2Fdoi%2F10.1515%2F9783110304176.189%2Fhtml&data=04%7C01%7Cmaia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au%7C237a5407f6484670e3ba08d9c11958d9%7C05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226%7C0%7C0%7C637753136901047734%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=epUSlpcyYNkWhFUtxjSROG4kA%2FN7nGCx3dZOBAdPyvU%3D&reserved=0>)
> might be of interest; see also the thirty studies referring to this paper
> according to Google Scholar:
> https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=9645899484374998601
> <https://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fscholar.google.com%2Fscholar%3Fcites%3D9645899484374998601&data=04%7C01%7Cmaia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au%7C237a5407f6484670e3ba08d9c11958d9%7C05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226%7C0%7C0%7C637753136901047734%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=JV3exAEmpaPp6Y9kKvjw6jPWhSGmt8GgDRXQNv4wTKk%3D&reserved=0>
> (and so forth).
>
> Best regards,
>
> Jussi
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *Frá:* Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> fyrir hönd
> Sebastian Nordhoff <sebastian.nordhoff at glottotopia.de>
> *Sent:* þriðjudagur, 14. desember 2021 22:50
> *Til:* lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> *Efni:* Re: [Lingtyp] Grammatical marking of insults (?)
>
> Dear Riccardo,
> Sinhala has several levels of politeness in imperatives (marked by
> affixes), one of which would be rendered as "Do X, you $#!% !!!". I once
> nearly got beaten up when underestimating the impact that the use of
> this form can have. I can look up the reference if you want to.
> Best wishes
> Sebastian
>
> On 12/14/21 19:49, Riccardo Giomi wrote:
> > Dear all,
> >
> > A student of mine would like to investigate the linguistic coding of
> > insults across languages. She is particularly interested in finding out
> > whether languages can have dedicated (uses of) grammatical
> > forms/constructions for this specific purpose. The best example I could
> > come up with so far is the use of the Portuguese third person reflexive
> > possessive adjective (determiner in Brazilian Portuguese) /seu/sua/ with
> > epithets which are meant as insults. An example would be
> >
> > /Cala=te, seu burro!/
> > shut.up.IMP.2.SG
> <https://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fshut.up.imp.2.sg%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmaia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au%7C237a5407f6484670e3ba08d9c11958d9%7C05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226%7C0%7C0%7C637753136901047734%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=OaDk%2F7hFrvRtpOBhfKwUevC8smNd3Chcubfwp7so7Kk%3D&reserved=0>
> <http://shut.up.IMP.2.SG
> <https://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fshut.up.imp.2.sg%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmaia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au%7C237a5407f6484670e3ba08d9c11958d9%7C05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226%7C0%7C0%7C637753136901203957%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=QiGh68aQjYiGJXFoTdzbzhPVG62KT%2B5KgkVLecDlf5Q%3D&reserved=0>>=2.SG.OBJ
> 3.SG.REFL.POSS
> > donkey.M.SG
> <https://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fdonkey.m.sg%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmaia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au%7C237a5407f6484670e3ba08d9c11958d9%7C05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226%7C0%7C0%7C637753136901203957%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=OXB1nU8%2FpyDVV37ywRUycl5yM8UNldDFN0SEkUrkcJc%3D&reserved=0>
> <http://donkey.M.SG
> <https://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fdonkey.m.sg%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmaia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au%7C237a5407f6484670e3ba08d9c11958d9%7C05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226%7C0%7C0%7C637753136901360240%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=mXxOz4tSaZScIlns23tyjhfPdfYtwK%2FsIjlbKj88Tks%3D&reserved=0>
> >
> > 'Shut up, you idiot!'
> >
> > (Where, funnily enough, the third person of the adjective/determiner is
> > presumably the polite form!) This is an interesting case, I think,
> > because as far as I can see you never use /seu/sua /in 'plain'
> > vocatives, nor with terms of endearment, nor, for that matter, with NPs
> > which are not used as invocations.
> >
> > I am wondering whether anyone is aware of a language which has some
> > grammaticalized form or construction that can be used in this specific
> > way. Note that I am not interested in, say, abusive pronouns or
> > honorifics or general expressions of the speaker's disappointment
> > ('frustrative' markers) but only in grammaticalized means of marking the
> > speech act as an insult.
> >
> > Many thanks in advance and best wishes to all,
> > Riccardo
> >
> > --
> > Riccardo Giomi, Ph.D.
> > University of Liège
> > Département de langues modernes : linguistique, littérature et traduction
> > Research group /Linguistique contrastive et typologie des langues/
> > F.R.S.-FNRS Postdoctoral fellow (CR - FC 43095)
> > //
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> Prof. M.M.Jocelyne FERNANDEZ-VEST CNRS & Université Sorbonne Nouvelle
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