[Lingtyp] papers on non-uniqueness in tone and stress

Thu Feb 4 13:57:00 UTC 2021

Hi Adam,

In my dissertation I discussed this issue in Oklahoma Cherokee (Uchihara
2016). The word-prosody of Oklahoma Cherokee had been described either as
tonal, accentual or both (see for instance Lindsey 1985; ms; Wright 1996),
and I argued that some classes of high tone are indeed tones, while others
(such as what had been analyzed to be a floating tone associated with
certain prefixes) are more accentual. In the last chapter I tried to
characterize Cherokee word-prosody applying Larry Hyman's word-prosody
(canonical) typology, and the system does indeed appear to be a mixture of
tone and accent.

Lindsey, Geoffrey. 1985. Intonation and interrogation: tonal structure and
the expression of a pragmatic function in English and other languages.
Ph.D. diss., University of California, Los Angeles.
Lindsey, Geoffrey. ms. Cherokee Pitch Phonology. Ms., University College,
London.
Uchihara, Hiroto. 2016. Tone & Accent in Oklahoma Cherokee. Oxford Studies
of Endangered Languages. Oxford University Press.
Wright, Richard. 1996. Tone and Accent in Oklahoma Cherokee. In: Munro
(ed.), 11-22

Best,
Hiroto

El jue, 4 de feb. de 2021 a la(s) 07:52, Adam James Ross Tallman (
ajrtallman at utexas.edu) escribió:

> Thanks Martin, Grev and Erich!
>
> I'll take a look at these papers / dissertations / blog posts, some of
> which I hadn't catched yet.
>
> best,
>
> p.s. in case someone understood my email as an attack on a specific tribe
> called "formal phonologists", I only evoked a hypothetical "phonologist"
> manifested in various reviewers and conference goers who has insisted in
> having a (pointless) debate with me regarding whether some particular
> system is "really" ("prototypically") tonal or "really" ("prototypical")
> stress. Following the multivariate distinction advocated by the responsees,
> we should of course, reject such a distinction at the onset and break down
> the relevant categories into measurable typological variables. I'm excited
> to see people drop the term "stress" completely and just refer to
> prominence marks with values corresponding to their phonetic realization.
>
> best,
>
> Adam
>
> On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 2:32 PM Martin Haspelmath <
> martin_haspelmath at eva.mpg.de> wrote:
>
>> It seems that there are at least three different issues here:
>>
>> (i) whether all speakers of a language have the same system even when
>> their conventional behaviour is identical; there happens to be an example
>> of indeterminacy in the latest issue of *Phonological Data and Analysis*
>> (see Matthew Gordon's earlier message):
>>
>> Bennett, W. G., & Braver, A. (2020). Different speakers, different
>> grammars: Productivity and representation of Xhosa labial palatalization. *Phonological
>> Data and Analysis*, *2*(6), 1–29. https://doi.org/10.3765/pda.v2art6.9
>>
>> (ii) on what basis one decides between different analyses of a
>> language-particular system; e.g. Schane's (1968) example of English [spin],
>> which can be phonemicized as /sbin/ (with phonetic devoicing of /b/ after
>> sibilant) or /spʰin/ (with phonetic deaspiration in the same environment).
>>
>> (iii) how one links language-particular phenomena to comparative
>> concepts; Erich Round's paper on “Australian Phonemic Inventories
>> Contributed to PHOIBLE 2.0” https://doi.org/10.5281/zenodo.3464333 is a
>> clear example of this last type. It seems that the issue in Chácobo that
>> Adam Tallman mentioned ("tone" vs. "stress") also falls in this category.
>>
>> Phonologists do not always distinguish between (ii) and (iii) (particular
>> description vs. general comparison), as pointed out prominently by Lass
>> (1984) and Simpson (1999) (cited by Erich). But Kiparsky (2018) (also cited
>> by Erich) explicitly rejects the distinction – I have argued against
>> Kiparsky here: https://dlc.hypotheses.org/1817.
>>
>> Best,
>> Martin
>>
>> Am 04.02.21 um 13:28 schrieb Erich Round:
>>
>> Hi Adam,
>>
>>
>>
>> I’ve enjoyed the conversations you’ve sparked here on the list recently,
>> please keep them coming!
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for raising an important topic.  I have some paper suggestions
>> below.  I’d start by saying, though, that you might be getting formal
>> phonologists wrong.  Generative theorists from the start were well aware of
>> the non-uniqueness problem, and that’s one reason why they were so keen on
>> metrics to evaluate multiple candidate grammars.  Now, that’s not to say it
>> proved to be plain sailing, but there’s a deep appreciation of the problem
>> buried in the theory, even if for practical purposes much theoretical work
>> (just like much typological work) assumes only one analysis in order to get
>> some other task completed in a finite amount of time.  In optimality
>> theory, the notion of Richness of the base is one new-ish incarnation of
>> attempts to deal with the matter.
>>
>>
>>
>> Canonical Typology (Corbett 2005, Round and Corbett 2020) provides the
>> conceptual tools for asking not just whether ‘the best analysis’ is A, B or
>> C, but to what extent, in multiple different regards, A, B and C differ and
>> therefore can be considered (dis)advantageous in different ways. This helps
>> us clarify why and how multiple analyses arise in the first place. My
>> forthcoming chapter (2021) on phonotactics in Australian languages
>> discusses this with respect to complex segments; Kwon & Round (2015)
>> discuss it with respect to phonaesthemes; my review (2017) of Gordon’s
>> Phonological Typology (2016) discusses the idea of doing typology over a
>> distribution of possible analyses (which I term ‘factorial analysis’) and
>> points out some places where Gordon’s own work covertly does this when
>> confronted with non-uniqueness. Parncutt (2015) applies the idea to
>> reduplication, and a current PhD student of mine, Ruihua Yin presented some
>> of her fascinating results regarding sonority sequencing at the Australian
>> Linguistics Society conference in December; her thesis should be finished
>> early this year, and will be a major undertaking in this kind of typology.
>> Round (2019) discusses how I addressed the issue of non-uniqueness when
>> compiling a typologically nuanced set of 400 Australia phoneme inventories
>> for Phoible. Natalia Kuznetsova’s work (2019) is relevant to prosody and
>> responds to Hyman’s (2006) classic paper. Other serious discussions of the
>> issue from various angles, typically very thoughtful and some quite
>> in-depth are: Hockett 1963, Lass 1984, Simpson 1999, Hyman 2007, 2008,
>> 2017, Dresher 2009, van der Hulst 2017, Kiparksy 2018.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Erich
>>
>>
>>
>> Corbett, Greville G. 2005. “The Canonical Approach in Typology.” In *Linguistic
>> Diversity and Language Theories*, edited by Zygmunt Frajzyngier, Adam
>> Hodges, and David S Rood, 25–49. Amsterdam: John Benjamins.
>>
>> Dresher, B. Elan. 2009. *The Contrastive Hierarchy in Phonology*.
>> Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
>>
>> Gordon, Matthew K. 2016. *Phonological Typology*. Oxford University
>> Press.
>>
>> Hockett, Charles F. 1963. “The Problem of Universals in Language.” In *Universals
>> of Language*, edited by Joseph Greenberg, 1–29.
>>
>> Hyman, Larry. 2006. “Word-Prosodic Typology.” *Phonology* 23: 225–57.
>>
>> Hyman, Larry M. 2007. “Where’s Phonology in Typology?” *Linguistic
>> Typology* 11: 265–71.
>>
>> Hyman, Larry M. 2008. “Universals in Phonology.” *The Linguistic Review*
>> 25: 83–137.
>>
>> Hyman, Larry M. 2017. “What (Else) Depends on Phonology?” In *Dependencies
>> in Language*, edited by Nicholas Enfield, 141–58.
>>
>> Kiparsky, Paul. 2018. “Formal and Empirical Issues in Phonological
>> Typology.” In *Phonological Typology*, edited by Larry M. Hyman and
>> Frans Plank, 54–106. Berlin: De Gruyter Mouton.
>>
>> Kuznetsova, Natalia. 2019. What Danish and Estonian can show to a modern
>> word-prosodic typology. In Goedemans, R., Heinz, J., & van der Hulst, H.
>> (Eds.). The study of word stress and accent: Theories, methods and data.
>> CUP.
>>
>> Kwon, Nahyun, and Erich R. Round. 2015. “Phonaesthemes in Morphological
>> Theory.” *Morphology* 25 (1): 1–27.
>>
>> Lass, Roger. 1984. “Vowel System Universals and Typology: Prologue to
>> Theory.” *Phonology Yearbook* 1: 75–111.
>>
>> Parncutt, Amy. 2015. “Towards a Phonological Typology of Reduplication in
>> Australian Languages.” Honours Thesis, University of Queensland.
>>
>> Round, Erich R. 2017. “Review of Gordon, Matthew K. Phonological
>> Typology, OUP 2016.” *Folia Linguistica* 51 (3): 745–55.
>>
>> Round, Erich R. 2019. “Australian Phonemic Inventories Contributed to
>> PHOIBLE 2.0: Essential Explanatory Notes.”
>> https://doi.org/10.5281/zenodo.3464333.
>>
>> Round, Erich R. forthcoming 2021. “Phonotactics.” In *Oxford Guide to
>> Australian Languages*, edited by Claire Bowern. Oxford: Oxford
>> University Press. DOI: 10.13140/RG.2.2.23022.13120
>>
>> Round, Erich R., and Greville G. Corbett. 2020. “Comparability and
>> Measurement in Typological Science: The Bright Future for Linguistics.” *Linguistic
>> Typology* 24 (3): 489–525.
>>
>> Simpson, Adrian P. 1999. “Fundamental Problems in Comparative Phonetics
>> and Phonology: Does UPSID Help to Solve Them.” In *Proceedings of the
>> 14th International Congress of Phonetic Sciences*, 1:349–52. Berkeley:
>> University of California.
>>
>> Van der Hulst, Harry. 2017. “Phonological Typology.” In *The Cambridge
>> Handbook of Linguistic Typology*, edited by Alexandra Y. Aikhenvald and
>> Robert MW Dixon, 39–77. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of TALLMAN Adam
>> <Adam.TALLMAN at cnrs.fr> <Adam.TALLMAN at cnrs.fr>
>> *Date: *Thursday, 4 February 2021 at 9:20 pm
>> *To: *VAN DE VELDE Mark <Mark.VANDEVELDE at cnrs.fr>
>> <Mark.VANDEVELDE at cnrs.fr>, "lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org"
>> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> *Subject: *Re: [Lingtyp] papers on non-uniqueness in tone and stress
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks, yes, I've read this paper.
>>
>>
>>
>> Adam
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Adam James Ross Tallman (PhD, UT Austin)
>>
>> ELDP-SOAS -- Postdoctorant
>> CNRS -- Dynamique Du Langage (UMR 5596)
>> Bureau 207, 14 av. Berthelot, Lyon (07)
>>
>> Numero celular en bolivia: +59163116867
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> *De :* Lingtyp [lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org] de la part de
>> Mark Van de Velde [mark.vandevelde at cnrs.fr]
>> *Envoyé :* jeudi 4 février 2021 11:57
>> *À :* lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>> *Objet :* Re: [Lingtyp] papers on non-uniqueness in tone and stress
>>
>> Dear Adam:
>>
>> I can recommend Hyman (2012).
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> Hyman, Larry M. 2012. In defense of prosodic typology: A response to
>> Beckman and Venditti. *Linguistic Typology*. De Gruyter Mouton 16(3).
>> 341–385. https://doi.org/10.1515/lity-2012-0014.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 04/02/2021 11:12, TALLMAN Adam wrote:
>>
>> Hello all,
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm looking for papers on the notion of non-uniqueness in phonology (or
>> morphosyntax if applicable). I have three so far (Chao, Hockett, and
>> Schane).
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm particularly interesting in non-uniqueness in the domain of the
>> description of suprasegmentals - like when we have a system that seems to
>> mix tone and (other types of) prominence whether the system should be
>> described as tonal with a stress mapped to it or vice versa. Phonologists
>> discuss the issue as if there is an obvious unique best way of describing
>> such relations in all cases. But I think that's probably false and it
>> choosing one over the other just amounts to an expositional decision - some
>> of  the discussion in Tallman and Elias-Ulloa (2020) point in this
>> direction in Chácobo.
>>
>>
>>
>> There's also the related issue of *when* the acoustic correlates of some
>> phonological category are organized in such a way as to genuinely merit the
>> designation "tone". Phonologists seem to assume that this issue is trivial
>> or obvious - again, I think this is probably false (the notion is more open
>> ended than is recognized) regardless of the phonological evidence that can
>> be rallied in support of one position or another.
>>
>>
>>
>> @Article{chao:1934:phonemes,
>>     title = {The non-uniqueness of phonemic solutions of phonetic
>> systems},
>>     author = {Yuen Ren Chao},
>>     journal = {Bulletin of the Institute of History and Philology,
>> Academia Sinica},
>>     year = {1934},
>>     volume = {4},
>>     number = {},
>>     pages = {363-397},
>>     %doi = {},
>>     %urldate = {},
>> }
>>
>>
>>
>> @incollection{hockett:1963:universals,
>>     Author = {Charles F. Hockett},
>>     Booktitle = {Universals of language (Volume 2)},
>>     Editor = {Joseph H. Greenberg},
>>     Pages = {1-29},
>>     Publisher = {MIT Press},
>>     Address = {Cambridge, MA},
>>     Title = {The problem of universals in language},
>>     Year = {1963},
>>     Edition = {}}
>>
>>
>>
>> @Article{schane:1968:nonuniqueness,
>>     title = {On the non-uniqueness of phonological representations},
>>     author = {Sanford A. Schane},
>>     journal = {Language},
>>     year = {1968},
>>     volume = {44},
>>     number = {4},
>>     pages = {363-397},
>>     %doi = {},
>>     %urldate = {},
>> }
>>
>>
>>
>> @Article{tallman:eliasulloa:2020:acoustics,
>>     title = {The acoustic correlates of stress and tone in Chácobo
>> (Pano)},
>>     author = {Adam J.R. Tallman},
>>     journal = {The acoustic correlates of stress and tone in Chácobo
>> (Pano): A production study},
>>     editor = {Adam J.R. Tallman and José Élias-Ulloa},
>>     year = {2020},
>>     volume = {147},
>>     number = {4},
>>     pages = {3028},
>>     doi = {https://doi.org/10.1121/10.0001014},
>>     %urldate = {2019-07-04},
>> }
>>
>>
>>
>> Adam
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Adam James Ross Tallman (PhD, UT Austin)
>>
>> ELDP-SOAS -- Postdoctorant
>> CNRS -- Dynamique Du Langage (UMR 5596)
>> Bureau 207, 14 av. Berthelot, Lyon (07)
>>
>> Numero celular en bolivia: +59163116867
>>
>>
>>
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>>
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>>
>> --
>>
>> [image: Image removed by sender. LLACAN]
>>
>> Mark Van de Velde
>> Directeur du LLACAN (CNRS-INaLCO)
>> mark.vandevelde.cnrs.fr
>> bantu.cnrs.fr
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Lingtyp mailing listLingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.orghttp://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>>
>>
>> --
>> Martin Haspelmath
>> Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
>> Deutscher Platz 6
>> D-04103 Leipzighttps://www.shh.mpg.de/employees/42385/25522
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>
>
> --
> Adam J.R. Tallman
> PhD, University of Texas at Austin
> Investigador del Museo de Etnografía y Folklore, la Paz
> ELDP -- Postdoctorante
> CNRS -- Dynamique Du Langage (UMR 5596)
> _______________________________________________
> Lingtyp mailing list
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> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>

-- 
Dr. Hiroto Uchihara
https://sites.google.com/view/hiroto-uchihara/home?authuser=0
Investigador, Titular A, Tiempo Completo, Definitivo
Seminario de Lenguas Indígenas
Instituto de Investigaciones Filológicas
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
Circuito Mario de la Cueva
Ciudad Universitaria, 04510, Ciudad de México.
Tel. Seminario:(+52)-(55)-5622-7489
Office: (+52)-(55)-5622-7250, Ext. 49223
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