[Lingtyp] New name for "Mainland Northeast Asia"

Mon Jan 4 17:11:24 UTC 2021

Your current range of languages looks like that you're looking for a
linguistic area that is centered around the North China Plain / Lower
Yangtze Plain. (Which you are more than welcome to do.)

Based on your first e-mail, it seems that you are (were?) more interested
in the Eastern Steppes + Korea. I think what Brigitte meant was that it
would be a shame if you don't include any languages at all from Siberia,
especially if you are more focused on the Eastern Steppes + Korea.

(Just thinking to myself: if I do a study centered on the Eastern Steppes,
I think I would a) include many languages of Siberia; b) go as far south as
the Yangtze river basin, possibly also Min, given their typological
Wu-ness, but I would leave out the Pearl river basin and further south if I
am short of time.)

Whichever path you choose, I look forward to your results!
Hilário

On Mon, 4 Jan 2021 at 17:20, JOO, Ian [Student] <ian.joo at connect.polyu.hk>
wrote:

> Indeed, the only barrier will be the realistic limitations of my time and
> effort. In an ideal world I could sample all the languages spoken all over
> the world. But since there are 34 sample languages and (provisionally) 50
> features, I will have to verify if a feature exists in each language 1700
> times. That’s already a lot to do for a thesis. Since there’s no real
> “movement barrier” in Eurasia, unless I investigate the entire Eurasian
> continent, I have to choose an arbitrary geographical window at some point,
> and a window of reasonable size for me seems to be East Asia.
>
> Regards,
> Ian
> On 5 Jan 2021, 12:10 AM +0800, PAKENDORF Brigitte <
> Brigitte.PAKENDORF at cnrs.fr>, wrote:
>
> Dear Ian,
>
>
>
> that sounds like a radical change of direction, indeed ! But why are you
> excluding North and Southeast Asia from your bottom-up approach ? There are
> no barriers to movements of peoples or languages that would justify this,
> are there?
>
>
>
> Brigitte
>
>
>
> *******************************
>
> Brigitte PAKENDORF
>
> Directrice de recherche / Senior scientist
>
> Dynamique du Langage
>
> CNRS & Université Lumière Lyon 2
>
> 14 avenue Berthelot
>
> 69007 Lyon
>
> France
>
> Tel : +33 (0)4 72 72 64 26
>
>
>
> *De :* Lingtyp [mailto:lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org] *De la
> part de* JOO, Ian [Student]
> *Envoyé :* lundi 4 janvier 2021 16:07
> *À :* LINGTYP <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> *Objet :* Re: [Lingtyp] New name for "Mainland Northeast Asia"
>
>
>
> Dear all,
>
> first, I apologize if I’m spamming everyone with my personal research. But
> this is just a response to some of those who have provided me helpful
> feedback.
> As some have rightfully pointed out the problems of my top-down approach,
> I decided to take their advice and radically change the direction of my
> research into a bottom-up approach. In other words, other than
> hypothesizing that there is a linguistic area called
> Mainland/Inner/Central/whatever Northeast Asia and then looking for
> features that would justify that area, I decided to agnostically collect
> linguistic features from the sample languages of a macroarea and then use
> that data to see if there are any subareas within that macroarea. And that
> macroarea will be East Asia (not including North Asia or Southeast Aisa). I
> have selected 34 convenience sample languages spoken in East Asia (see
> below). (Note that some language names are simplified for visual
> convenience, for example just “Hmong” for Dananshan Hmong.)
>
> <image001.png>
>
> So the idea is to first gather, say, 50-100 linguistic features, test
> whether each language has that feature, and then use that data to see if
> certain feature is dominant in certain geographical zones within East Asia
> (for example Northwest China). Only after that would it be safe to claim a
> linguistic area.
> I would like to express my gratitude to all the helpful feedback that
> drastically changed the direction of my future research. Also I would
> appreciate it if you could have a look at the sample languages above to see
> if I should add any sample languages to balance the geography or geneology
> of the sample.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Ian
>
> On 4 Jan 2021, 7:47 PM +0800, JOO, Ian [Student] <ian.joo at connect.polyu.hk>,
> wrote:
>
> Dear Andi,
>
> Vladimir Panov in his recent paper "Final particles in Asia: Establishing
> an areal feature <https://doi.org/10.1515/lingty-2019-2032>” discusses
> the definition of an areal feature.
> His idea is that even if a given feature found not only in a given area
> but in other parts of the world as well, that doesn’t necessarily rule out
> that that feature is not areal. If that feature is not found in areas
> surrounding that area, then that qualifies as an areal feature too.
> I would like to take an example from Mainland Southeast Asia: Tones. Of
> course, tones are not unique to Mainland Southeast Asia. It’s even
> prevalent in its neighboring regions like Northeast Asia. But no one would
> deny that tones are a linguistic feature of MSEA precisely because it’s
> uncommon in areas surrounding it (insular Southeast Asia and South Asia).
> Thus we cannot say that “because tones are common in other parts of the
> world, it can’t be an areal feature of MSEA.” Sure, it can’t be a *unique* feature
> of MSEA, but it’s its areal feature nevertheless. This is how I view
> areality.
> You’re right about the methodological issue that the bottom-up approach
> would be good as well. But for the moment I would like to try a top-down
> methodology. And thanks for the reading suggestions!
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Ian
>
> On 4 Jan 2021, 7:33 PM +0800, hoelzlandreas at web.de <hoelzlandreas at web.de>,
> wrote:
>
> Dear Ian,
>
>
>
> A more salient feature of the area, such as a geographical name, would
> perhaps be more convincing than the name of a plant.
>
>
>
> Concerning the features you listed:
>
>
>
> > The colexification between NORTH and REAR (as previously discussed);
>
>
>
> This is indeed interesting. The same can be found in Oroqen
> (Tungusic), etc. I am not sure how old this feature is, but it cannot be
> found in varieties of Jurchen, the predecessor or close relative of Manchu
> which you had on your map.
>
>
>
> The other features you listed do not seem to define any area in Northeast
> Asia but can be found throughout Eurasia or the world. I would advice
> having another look at the typological literature (e.g., on differential
> object marking), literature on "Altaic/Transeurasian" (Martine Robbeets has
> a paper on passive/causative isomorphism), and the features in WALS
> (e.g., Holger Diessel's map on demonstratives:
> https://wals.info/feature/42A#2/23.2/152.6).
>
>
>
> Methodologically, it might be a good idea to find a set of features first
> and then think about a name of the "linguistic area" you may have found.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
>
>
> Andi
>
>
>
> *Gesendet:* Montag, 04. Januar 2021 um 11:10 Uhr
> *Von:* "JOO, Ian [Student]" <ian.joo at connect.polyu.hk>
> *An:* "LINGTYP" <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> *Betreff:* Re: [Lingtyp] New name for "Mainland Northeast Asia"
>
> Dear Andi, dear all,
>
> thank you Andi, for pointing that out.
> It seems that some are concerned with the terms “inner” and “outer”
> because it may have some connotation as a value judgement (more important
> v. less important). So this needs to be fixed.
> I appreciate your suggestion of the terms “central” and “peripheral” but
> to me, the word “peripheral” seems equally risky in terms of value
> judgement connotation: The Cambridge dictionary defines “peripheral” as
> "Something that is peripheral is not as important as something else”.
> I will think of several other options such as “Micro/Macro”,
> “Narrow/Wide”, “Small/Big”, etc. All other suggestions are welcome.
> (Or perhaps I will have to go with my previously suggested name
> “Astragalia”, if necessary.)
>
> As for Andi’s comment why we need this areal classification in the first
> place, well that’s what my doctoral research is trying to justify, and I
> already have several linguistic features that are found in this area but
> generally not in the surrounding areas, such as:
>
> The colexification between NORTH and REAR (as previously discussed);
>
> Isomorphic pronoun/determiner alternation of demonstratives (such as
> English “*This *is a book”/“*This *book”);
>
> The presence of velar nasal only at the coda position;
>
> Monomorphemic 1PL pronouns;
>
> Isomorphimic passive/causative alternation (e. g. Mandarin *ràng*);
>
> Differential Object Marking by marked v. unmarked accusatives;
>
> The presence of falling diphthongs.
>
> Hopefully I will continue to find out more during my doctoral years. I
> hope this helps and any comments are of course welcome.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Ian
>
> On 4 Jan 2021, 5:40 PM +0800, hoelzlandreas at web.de <hoelzlandreas at web.de>,
> wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
>
>
> Johanna is correct in pointing out Janhunen's book. Manchuria is certainly
> a problematic term due to its association with Manchukuo, but it is still
> employed in academic literature outside of China where the term dōngběi 东北 'Northeast' is
> used instead. But it seems to me that the area under investigation here is
> slightly different from what is usually referred to as Manchuria. The blue
> area excludes those parts of Manchuria that since 1858/60 became part of
> Russia (Primorye region, Sakhalin, etc.) but includes large parts of
> Northern China and Mongolia. As for Northeast Asia, there is also a very
> different definition by Chard, Janhunen, myself, and ohters that is much
> broader and also includes Northern Asia. Janhunen refers to this as "wider"
> Northeast Asia:
>
>
>
> "In the widest sense, Northeast Asia as a geographical and ethnohistorical
> region can be defined as the entire northeastern part of the Eurasian
> continent, delimited by the Yenisei in the west and the Yellow River in the
> south. In the northeast, the region extends, in principle, to the Bering
> Strait. In a somewhat narrower framework, Northeast Asia may be defined as
> comprising the territory between the Amur and Yellow River basins,
> including the Korean Peninsula and the Japanese Islands in the Pacific
> coastal zone, but excluding the northeasternmost limits of what is today
> the Russian Far East." (Janhunen 2010)
>
>
>
> What Janhunen calls "narrow" Northeast Asia is close to the area you are
> interested in but includes Japan and other parts of "Pacific Northeast
> Asia" as Zgusta calls it.
>
>
>
> I would also avoid using "inner" and "outer", which might have unwanted
> connotations of being included and excluded, etc. Concerning "boreal" and
> "austral" proposed by Dan Slobin, I agree that the terms would be more
> neutral. But if I understood you correctly, "Outer Northeast Asia" would be
> the surrounding area on all sides and not only to the South. In this case,
> "central" and "peripheral" might be more adequate. But some parts on your
> map are also part of peripheral Mainland Southeast Asia as was pointed out
> by Hilário de Sousa.
>
>
>
> The main question would be, of course, why you need a term for this area
> in the first place.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
>
>
> Andi
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *Gesendet:* Sonntag, 03. Januar 2021 um 23:44 Uhr
> *Von:* "Bohnemeyer, Juergen" <jb77 at buffalo.edu>
> *An:* "Johanna Nichols" <johanna at berkeley.edu>
> *Cc:* "LINGTYP" <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> *Betreff:* Re: [Lingtyp] New name for "Mainland Northeast Asia"
>
> “Manchuria” strikes me politically/historically fraught due to its
> association with Manchukuo. But, I’m about as far from being an expert on
> this region as a typologist can be, so what do I know! — Best — Juergen
>
> > On Jan 3, 2021, at 4:10 PM, Johanna Nichols <johanna at berkeley.edu>
> wrote:
> >
> > Janhunen 1996 uses the term Manchuria for this area and covers its
> ethnohistory and linguistic history so comprehensively that I consider it a
> precedent for using that term.
> >
> > Janhunen, Juha. Manchuria: An ethnic history. Helsinki:
> Suomalais-Ugrilainen Seura, 1996.
> >
> > Johanna
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 12:11 PM Dan I. SLOBIN <slobin at berkeley.edu>
> wrote:
> > "Inner" and "outer" convey an implicit hierarchy: some are in and some
> are out; some are central and some are peripheral.
> > I suggest a simple, objective solution, avoiding the repetition of names
> of compass directions, and avoiding what may
> > be seen as value judgments: Boreal Northeast Asia and Austral Southeast
> Asia -- i.e., North and South, using Latin terms.
> > I don't think these terms are opaque: "Boreal" will, for some people,
> evoke "Aurora Borealis," the Northern Lights;
> > "Austral" will evoke southerly geography, as in Austronesia and
> Australia.
> >
> > Dan Slobin
> >
> > On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 3:28 AM JOO, Ian [Student] <
> ian.joo at connect.polyu.hk> wrote:
> > Dear all,
> >
> > (I’m sorry if no one cares, but just for the update)
> > Although no one suggested any alternatives, I gave it a thought and
> changed the terms “Mainland Northeast Asia” to “Inner Northeast Asia” (as
> opposed to “Outer Northeast Asia”, i. e. the rest of Northeast Asia).
> > Below is a visualized map of Inner and Outher Northeast Asia.
> >
> > <Attachment.tiff>
> >
> > From Hong Kong,
> > Ian
> > On 31 Dec 2020, 6:13 PM +0800, JOO, Ian [Student] <
> ian.joo at connect.polyu.hk>, wrote:
> >> Dear all,
> >>
> >> In my doctoral research, I refer to the lingistic area consisting of
> Korea, Mongolia, and Northeast China (but not Japan or Russian Far East) as
> "Mainland Northeast Asia."
> >> But this name is problematic, since Siberia is just as continental
> (part of "mainland") as well, and I don't intend to include Siberia.
> >> Because of this, I have been thinking of a better name for this area.
> >> The best one I can think of is Astragalia, from the name of the herb
> astragalus, which is native to Korea, Northeast China, Mongolia, and
> Southern Siberia.
> >> The downside of this fancy name is that, upon hearing it, whoever not
> familiar with herbalism will have no idea where it points to, without
> further explanation.
> >> Are there any other name candidates you can think of? If so, I would
> welcome all suggestions.
> >>
> >> From Hong Kong,
> >> Ian
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Disclaimer:
> >>
> >>
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> >
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> > Dan I. Slobin
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