[Lingtyp] spectrograms in linguistic description and for language comparison

Marianne Mithun mithun at linguistics.ucsb.edu
Sat Dec 10 19:21:37 UTC 2022 

Bravo Randy.

Yes, Christian, speakers certainly do have clear judgments about some
things, often like allomorphy. The trick is teasing out the differences.

Marianne

On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 10:40 AM Randy J. LaPolla <randy.lapolla at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear Lidia,
>
> balancing of elicitation Vs natural discourse data (especially in terms of
> negative evidence), is not as straightforward as I may have thought before.
>
>
> If I may, I’d like to suggest not using negative evidence at all. Here is
> the reasoning I presented in a recent post on Martin’s blog (
> https://dlc.hypotheses.org/) called “Non-Structuralist Linguistics”. I
> also question the whole idea of “grammaticality”, which I think is a
> prescriptivist notion. Here is the relevant passage:
>
> . . .  because of a written bias in the history of linguistics (Linell
> 2005), and later the influence of Rationalism in the late 20th century,
> the use of natural language data is not common, and often either a
> context-less elicitation method and “grammaticality” judgements are used,
> or sentences are made up by the linguist. No other science allows the
> scientist to make up his or her own data, and so this is something
> linguists should give up. Asking for “grammaticality” judgements,
> particularly negative ones, is problematic, because you are not testing
> grammaticality, but testing the person’s ability to imagine a context in
> which the sentence makes sense. This might tell us something about the
> frequency of a form, but not its grammaticality. As Chao Yuen Ren (赵元任)
> commented on Wang Li’s (王⼒) MA thesis "⾔有易，⾔⽆难” (‘It is easy to say what
> does exist, (but) it is difficult to say what does not exist’).
>
> In fact the whole concept of grammaticality is a prescriptivist notion,
> not a descriptivist notion, established by language teachers based on some
> abstract ideal and influenced by the written bias. What we think of as
> grammaticality is just our sensibilities, which reflect our own habits,
> and whether we can make sense of something by creating a context in which
> it makes sense. There are no fixed rules.
>
> In writing papers using a usage-based approach, there will be no
> “ungrammatical” examples. All generalizations are made on the basis of
> actual language use. One works inductively.
>
>
> All the best,
> Randy
> PS: This paper was originally published in Chinese, hence the Chinese
> quote.
> ——
> Professor Randy J. LaPolla（罗仁地), PhD FAHA
> Center for Language Sciences
> Institute for Advanced Studies in Humanities and Social Sciences
> Beijing Normal University at Zhuhai
> A302, Muduo Building, #18 Jinfeng Road, Zhuhai City, Guangdong, China
>
> https://randylapolla.info
> ORCID ID: https://orcid.org/0000-0002-6100-6196
>
> 邮编：519000
> 广东省珠海市唐家湾镇金凤路18号木铎楼A302
> 北京师范大学珠海校区
> 人文和社会科学高等研究院
> 语言科学研究中心
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 7 Dec 2022, at 7:50 PM, Lidia Federica Mazzitelli <
> lfmazzitelli at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I also think that the discussion is really interesting, and have read (and
> wish to read more) everything with great interest!
> I am also working on the grammar of a previously undescribed and
> relatively endangered language, and the selection of examples from the
> corpus, as well as the balancing of elicitation Vs natural discourse data
> (especially in terms of negative evidence), is not as straightforward as I
> may have thought before.
> Thank you!
>
> Best, Lidia
>
> Il mer 7 dic 2022, 22:39 Cat Butz <Cat.Butz at hhu.de> ha scritto:
>
>> Am 2022-12-05 09:48, schrieb Christian Lehmann:
>> > I am not sure how many members of this list would wish to continue
>> > this discussion.
>>
>> I, for one, am currently writing a grammar for my dissertation and am
>> reading everything in this discussion with great interest. Thanks to
>> everyone participating in this discussion for pointing out all those
>> things.
>>
>> Best,
>> ---
>> Cat Butz (she)
>> HHU Düsseldorf, general linguistics
>>
>> Cat Butz (sie)
>> HHU Düsseldorf, allgemeine Sprachwissenschaft
>>
>>
>>
>> > For something to count as proof in a science means that it corresponds
>> > to a certain pattern of argumentation by the methodological standards
>> > on which scientists have agreed. These patterns are different for
>> > logical and for empirical sciences. I feel reminded of
>> >
>> > Kamlah, Wilhelm & Lorenzen, Paul 1967, _Logische Propädeutik.
>> > Vorschule des vernünftigen Redens._ Mannheim: Bibliographisches
>> > Institut (B.I.-Hochschultaschenbücher).
>> >
>> > translated as:
>> > _Logical Propaedeutic: Pre-school of Reasonable Discourse._ Lanham,
>> > Maryland: University Press of America, 1984.
>> >
>> > It is true that things are more complicated in empirical disciplines
>> > because we have indeed to agree upon standards of validity. And to the
>> > extent that it is impractical to counter-check everything that a
>> > proponent assures his audience of, there is a portion of trust
>> > involved in scientific discourse of an empirical discipline.
>> >
>> > Things work the Kamlah-Lorenzen way if a scientific claim is a simple
>> > general statement of the kind 'in German, the definite article
>> > precedes (rather than follows) the nominal group'. To prove it,
>> > according to established standards of our discipline, it suffices for
>> > me to produce a (probatory) example of a certain kind. If you do not
>> > accept it, you may either operationalize my claim in such a way that
>> > what I produced does not count as an example or to produce a
>> > counter-example (of a postnominal definite article).
>> >
>> > The claim about the affix that you use as an example is more complex
>> > since the issue appears to be what the correct analysis of a certain
>> > occurrence is. This would have to be broken down into a set of simpler
>> > statements in order to be tractable by Kamlah & Lorenzen.
>> >
>> > Best,
>> > Christian
>> >
>> > Am 04.12.22 um 05:26 schrieb Juergen Bohnemeyer:
>> >
>> >> Dear Christian – I stand corrected! Thanks for the link, I think
>> >> it’s great that you’ve looked into this issue. I sincerely wish
>> >> more people had.
>> >>
>> >> And I think I agree with the policy you propose. But allow me to
>> >> elaborate just a little.
>> >>
>> >> Now, at the risk of splitting hairs, I’m afraid from where I look
>> >> at things, ‘probatory example’ is an oxymoron.
>> >>
>> >> There’s nothing an example could prove. In fact, there’s no such
>> >> thing as proof in science. Proof only exists in math, including in
>> >> logic.
>> >>
>> >> The closest equivalent to proof in science is hypothesis testing.
>> >>
>> >> Can an example ever be said to serve as a test of a hypothesis?
>> >>
>> >> Let’s say the author is aiming to adjudicate between two competing
>> >> analyses. One predicts that a certain affix will appear in a certain
>> >> environment, while the competing analysis predicts that it won’t.
>> >> Then the author produces an example that instantiates the relevant
>> >> context, and features or doesn’t feature the affix, thereby
>> >> confirming one prediction or the other.
>> >>
>> >> Under such conditions, the example in question can assume a role
>> >> similar to that of hypothesis testing in experimental science.
>> >>
>> >> But then immediately validity concerns analogous to those in
>> >> experimentation will present themselves. Such as:
>> >>
>> >> * Internal validity: Was the example correctly analyzed and coded?
>> >> Is the occurrence of the affix in question actually conditioned
>> >> solely by the factors the competing hypotheses assume, or could it
>> >> also be conditioned by other factors?
>> >> * External validity: Is the example reproducible with other
>> >> members of the speech community? Assuming there are any left!
>> >> * Ecological validity: Does the example actually reflect the
>> >> everyday linguistic behavior of speakers of the language
>> >> (/doculect)? Assuming there still is everyday use by the members of
>> >> the community!
>> >>
>> >> As I see it, the recommendations your webpage makes for documenting
>> >> the conditions under which a ‘probatory’ example was recorded go
>> >> some way toward addressing concerns with external and ecological
>> >> validity.
>> >>
>> >> But the biggest challenge for addressing such concerns is in my view
>> >> that we haven’t developed standards for assessing and reporting
>> >> the empirical basis for our descriptions – the speakers we collect
>> >> the data from, and how well they/it represent(s) the speech
>> >> community, or which speech community it represents.
>> >>
>> >> Best -- Juergen
>> >>
>> >> Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)
>> >> Professor, Department of Linguistics
>> >> University at Buffalo
>> >>
>> >> Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus
>> >> Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260
>> >> Phone: (716) 645 0127
>> >> Fax: (716) 645 3825
>> >> Email: jb77 at buffalo.edu
>> >> Web: http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/ [1]
>> >>
>> >> Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID
>> >> 585 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh)
>> >>
>> >> There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light Gets In
>> >> (Leonard Cohen)
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >>
>> >> From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf
>> >> of Christian Lehmann <christian.lehmann at uni-erfurt.de>
>> >> Date: Friday, December 2, 2022 at 10:18 AM
>> >> To: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>> >> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> >> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] spectrograms in linguistic description and
>> >> for language comparison
>> >>
>> >> Dear Jürgen,
>> >>
>> >> to mitigate a bit your pessimist opinion of the methodological
>> >> situation of our discipline, let me mention, as a contribution to
>> >> the discussion you are requiring, my web page
>> >>
>> >
>> https://www.christianlehmann.eu/ling/ling_meth/ling_description/representations/?open=example.inc
>> >> [2]
>> >> which advocates a distinction between
>> >>
>> >> * a probatory example (which is data used as scientific evidence)
>> >> * and an illustrative example (or pedagogical example, which is
>> >> only meant to render a descriptive statement more concrete and,
>> >> thus, to help understanding).
>> >>
>> >> Methodological standards for these two kinds of examples are
>> >> completely different. On #1, I may recommend:
>> >>
>> >> Lehmann, Christian 2004, “Data in linguistics.” _The Linguistic
>> >> Review_ 21(3/4):275-310. [3]
>> >>
>> >> Best,
>> >> Christian
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >>
>> >> Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann
>> >> Rudolfstr. 4
>> >> 99092 Erfurt
>> >> Deutschland
>> >>
>> >> Tel.:
>> >>
>> >> +49/361/2113417
>> >>
>> >> E-Post:
>> >>
>> >> christianw_lehmann at arcor.de
>> >>
>> >> Web:
>> >>
>> >> https://www.christianlehmann.eu [4]
>> >
>> > --
>> > Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann
>> > Rudolfstr. 4
>> > 99092 Erfurt
>> > Deutschland
>> >
>> >               Tel.:
>> >               +49/361/2113417
>> >
>> >               E-Post:
>> >               christianw_lehmann at arcor.de
>> >
>> >               Web:
>> >               https://www.christianlehmann.eu
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Links:
>> > ------
>> > [1] http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/
>> > [2]
>> >
>> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2Fling%2Fling_meth%2Fling_description%2Frepresentations%2F%3Fopen%3Dexample.inc&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C7fe4ba1414394757470008dad4783cd7%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638055911006309971%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=VXi3oaBXPpkSUjObO9z%2Bg0ZPyvILV%2FkhMGG441T56L8%3D&reserved=0
>> > [3]
>> >
>> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fpublication%2F249931781_Data_in_linguistics&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C7fe4ba1414394757470008dad4783cd7%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638055911006309971%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=UI%2BLyj4NP2pzzyidgM3Z5nh72VJP%2FHCQl1UjmMWsRRI%3D&reserved=0
>> > [4]
>> >
>> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C7fe4ba1414394757470008dad4783cd7%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638055911006309971%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=HAeLu5NMoRkuDSO7t0wiYIxRVXp7%2FCh1yAPK8ixnqR0%3D&reserved=0
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