[Lingtyp] Affricates vs. stop-fricative clusters

Thu May 25 12:22:02 UTC 2023

Seems to be a general Slavic thing then!

Thanks to everyone who provided examples so far.
---
Cat Butz (she/they)
HHU Düsseldorf
General Linguistics

Am 2023-05-24 18:26, schrieb Stefan Savić:
> Dear All,
> 
> there are similar examples in another Slavic language, BCMS
> (Bosnian-Croatian-Montenegrin-Serbian), like od-šetati (walk away; I
> am not sure if there are people who argue that d stays voiced) vs.
> čekati (wait), od-sad (from now on) vs. car (tzar). I could look for
> other examples with d-ž and dž, but nothing comes to mind now.
> 
> Best regards,
> Stefan
> 
> On Wed, 24 May 2023 at 15:49, Kuznetsova Natalia <nkuzn at yandex.ru>
> wrote:
> 
>> Dear Christian, Francoise, and Cat,
>> 
>> Russian also distinguishes between the affricate /с/ and the
>> cluster /ts/. For example, the pairs like отца (otca) [atc´a ~
>> acc´a] 'father:GEN' and отсадить (otsadit') [atsad´it' ~
>> acsad´it'] 'to sit/plant someone or something away' have been
>> discussed in the Russian literature, e.g. here:
>> 
>> Popov, Michail Borisovich. 2004. _Problemy Sinchroničeskoj i
>> Diachroničeskoj Fonologii Russkogo Jazyka_. Sankt-Peterburg:
>> Filologičeskij fakul’tet SPbGU, pp. 52-53, 71-72 (where there is
>> also an overview of earlier studies).
>> 
>> I am not aware of any phonetic study in this respect, but I imagine
>> that also here the difference might be in a longer duration of the
>> fricative part.
>> 
>> As for the possible criteria which can contribute to phonemicity, I
>> personally believe that there are many of them, not just phonetics
>> or distribution. I myself have once counted around 20 of them in the
>> paper below (available, although unfortunately only in Russian, at
>> https://www.academia.edu/7370368/):
>> 
>> Kuznecova, Natal’ja Viktorovna. 2014. Ob istorii, suš’nosti i
>> izmerenijah fonemy. In _Ot Bikina do Bambal’umy, iz var’ag v
>> greki: Ekspedicionnyje et’udy v čest’ Eleny Vsevolodovny
>> Perehval’skoj_, Valentin Feodos’jevič Vydrin & Natal’ja
>> Viktorovna Kuznecova (eds), 406-442. Sankt-Peterburg:
>> Nestor-Istorija; Institut lingvističeskih issledovanij RAN;
>> Grečeskij institut Filologičeskogo fakul’teta SPbGU.
>> 
>> In this work, I was originally inspired by the ideas expressed in
>> the works by Charles Bazell from the 1950s (about which I've first
>> learned from Fischer-Jørgensen, Eli. 1975. _Trends in Phonological
>> Theory until 1975: A Historical Introduction_. Vol. 27. Copenhagen:
>> Academisk Forlag, p. 373-374). I think those same works have also
>> inspired Adam Tallan in his work on criteria convergence in
>> wordhood, and I strongly believe that this approach might bring
>> really interesting results in various fields of phonology in
>> general.
>> 
>> All the best,
>> 
>> Natalia Kuznetsova
>> Università Cattolica del Sacro Cuore,
>> Assistant Professor
>> 
>> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Wed, 24 May 2023 05:41:35 +0000
>> From: Fran?oise Rose <francoise.rose at univ-lyon2.fr>
>> To: Christian Lehmann <christian.lehmann at uni-erfurt.de>, LINGTYP
>> LINGTYP <LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>
>> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] [?] - [h]
>> Message-ID: <2b37ffb65b47435789dbcb3933c19e1d at univ-lyon2.fr>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> 
>> Dear Christian,
>> 
>> ?Questions such as whether [ts] consists of two segments /ts/ or is
>> one affricate /?/ are not solvable by phonetics (to the best of my
>> knowledge), but are resolved by analyzing the distribution of this
>> element.? This is in fact how I have proceeded for Moje?o Trinitario
>> (Arawak, Bolivia) to distinguish the bi-phonemic sequence /ts/ from
>> the phoneme /?/. Yet this is backed up by phonetics (in particular
>> the duration of the fricative part), as shown in the following
>> paper.
>> 
>> Rose, Fran?oise. 2021. Moje?o Trinitario. Journal of the
>> International Phonetic Association (Illustration of the IPA) 1?19.
>> 
> (doi:10.1017/S0025100320000365<https://doi.org/10.1017/S0025100320000365>)
>> 
>> As for your original question, ?Assuming that I want a rule that
>> assimilates a fricative to a following [u], producing [?], I will
>> have to accept an articulatory feature like [labial] in my
>> phonology. Does this correspond to the state of the art in
>> phonology?? I would say yes. I use the class ?labial consonant? to
>> explain the change affecting a vowel following this class of
>> consonant:
>> Labialization; {Labial C}{non-front V}{front V} ? {Labial C}w{a?e,i}
>> 
>> Rose, Fran?oise. 2019. Rhythmic syncope and opacity in Moje?o
>> Trinitario. Phonological data and analysis 1(2). 1?25.
>> 
>> Best,
>> Fran?oise
>> 
>> De : Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> De la part
>> de Christian Lehmann
>> Envoy? : mardi 23 mai 2023 15:41
>> ? : LINGTYP LINGTYP <LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>
>> Objet : Re: [Lingtyp] [?] - [h]
>> 
>> Dear Miren and everybody,
>> 
>> I find this problem interesting. Nowadays everybody appears to agree
>> that syntactic and morphological classes are essentially
>> distribution classes although the elements in question have meaning.
>> In the same spirit, the distributionalists conceived of the phoneme
>> in terms of the distribution of phones although these have physical
>> properties. And the basic phonological features like [consonantal]
>> and [syllabic] essentially relate to the distribution of segments in
>> phonotactic patterns. Questions such as whether [ts] consists of two
>> segments /ts/ or is one affricate /?/ are not solvable by phonetics
>> (to the best of my knowledge), but are resolved by analyzing the
>> distribution of this element. Again, it is true that distribution
>> alone leads to unsatisfactory classes. The complementary
>> distribution of [h] and [?] in several languages including English
>> is one such example. Apparently a distribution class counts as a
>> natural class only if it has a phonetic motivation.
>> 
>> My impression is that a full phonological description works with a
>> heterogeneous set of features: It does not abide by purely
>> distributional phonological features, but also needs features which
>> are essentially phonetic and have no direct relation to the
>> distribution of the segments characterized by them. This may
>> concern, in particular, features involved in processes of
>> assimilation. If a consonant assimilates to an adjacent vowel, it
>> means they share a feature despite their appurtenance to distinct
>> distribution classes.
>> 
>> Net result for my initial question: Assuming that I want a rule that
>> assimilates a fricative to a following [u], producing [?], I will
>> have to accept an articulatory feature like [labial] in my
>> phonology. Does this correspond to the state of the art in
>> phonology?
>> 
>> Christian--
>> 
>> Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann
>> Rudolfstr. 4
>> 99092 Erfurt
>> Deutschland
>> Tel.:
>> 
>> +49/361/2113417
>> 
>> E-Post:
>> 
>> christianw_lehmann at arcor.de<mailto:christianw_lehmann at arcor.de>
>> 
>> Web:
>> 
>> https://www.christianlehmann.eu [1]
>> 
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>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Wed, 24 May 2023 10:46:44 +0200
>> From: Cat Butz <Cat.Butz at hhu.de>
>> To: Fran?oise Rose <francoise.rose at univ-lyon2.fr>
>> Cc: Lingtyp <Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Affricates vs. stop-fricative clusters
>> Message-ID: <5005b66d901ee7e538689d6f637d74fd at hhu.de>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>> 
>> Hello Fran?oise,
>> 
>> Interesting, so far I only knew of Polish as an example of a
>> language
>> which distinguishes affricates from their corresponding
>> stop-fricative
>> clusters. Thanks for doubling that!
>> 
>> (For anyone who's interested: /t??/ is distinguished from /t?/
>> through a
>> longer duration and/or allophonic trilling/flapping into a voiceless
>> [tr?] of the latter in Polish.)
>> 
>> Best,
>> ---
>> Cat Butz (she/they)
>> HHU D?sseldorf
>> General Linguistics
>> 
>> Am 2023-05-24 07:41, schrieb Fran?oise Rose: Dear Christian,
>> 
>> ?Questions such as whether [ts] consists of two segments /ts/ or is
>> one affricate /?/ are not solvable by phonetics (to the best of my
>> knowledge), but are resolved by analyzing the distribution of this
>> element.? This is in fact how I have proceeded for Moje?o
>> Trinitario (Arawak, Bolivia) to distinguish the bi-phonemic
>> sequence
>> /ts/ from the phoneme /?/. Yet this is backed up by phonetics (in
>> particular the duration of the fricative part), as shown in the
>> following paper.
>> 
>> Rose, Fran?oise. 2021. Moje?o Trinitario. _Journal of the
>> International Phonetic Association_ (Illustration of the IPA) 1?19.
>> (doi:10.1017/S0025100320000365 [1])
>> 
>> As for your original question, ?Assuming that I want a rule that
>> assimilates a fricative to a following [u], producing [?], I will
>> have to accept an articulatory feature like [labial] in my
>> phonology.
>> Does this correspond to the state of the art in phonology?? I would
>> say yes. I use the class ?labial consonant? to explain the change
>> affecting a vowel following this class of consonant:
>> 
>> Labialization; {Labial C}{non-front V}{front V} ? {Labial
>> C}w{a?e,i}
>> 
>> Rose, Fran?oise. 2019. Rhythmic syncope and opacity in Moje?o
>> Trinitario. _Phonological data and analysis_ 1(2). 1?25.
>> 
>> Best,
>> 
>> Fran?oise
>> 
>> De : Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> De la part
>> de
>> Christian Lehmann
>> Envoy? : mardi 23 mai 2023 15:41
>> ? : LINGTYP LINGTYP <LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>
>> Objet : Re: [Lingtyp] [?] - [h]
>> 
>> Dear Miren and everybody,
>> 
>> I find this problem interesting. Nowadays everybody appears to
>> agree
>> that syntactic and morphological classes are essentially
>> distribution
>> classes although the elements in question have meaning. In the same
>> spirit, the distributionalists conceived of the phoneme in terms of
>> the distribution of phones although these have physical properties.
>> And the basic phonological features like [consonantal] and
>> [syllabic]
>> essentially relate to the distribution of segments in phonotactic
>> patterns. Questions such as whether [ts] consists of two segments
>> /ts/
>> or is one affricate /?/ are not solvable by phonetics (to the best
>> of
>> my knowledge), but are resolved by analyzing the distribution of
>> this
>> element. Again, it is true that distribution alone leads to
>> unsatisfactory classes. The complementary distribution of [h] and
>> [?]
>> in several languages including English is one such example.
>> Apparently
>> a distribution class counts as a natural class only if it has a
>> phonetic motivation.
>> 
>> My impression is that a full phonological description works with a
>> heterogeneous set of features: It does not abide by purely
>> distributional phonological features, but also needs features which
>> are essentially phonetic and have no direct relation to the
>> distribution of the segments characterized by them. This may
>> concern,
>> in particular, features involved in processes of assimilation. If a
>> consonant assimilates to an adjacent vowel, it means they share a
>> feature despite their appurtenance to distinct distribution
>> classes.
>> 
>> Net result for my initial question: Assuming that I want a rule
>> that
>> assimilates a fricative to a following [u], producing [?], I will
>> have to accept an articulatory feature like [labial] in my
>> phonology.
>> Does this correspond to the state of the art in phonology?
>> 
>> Christian
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann
>> Rudolfstr. 4
>> 99092 Erfurt
>> Deutschland
>> 
>> Tel.:
>> 
>> +49/361/2113417
>> 
>> E-Post:
>> 
>> christianw_lehmann at arcor.de
>> 
>> Web:
>> 
>> https://www.christianlehmann.eu [1]
>> 
>> Links:
>> ------
>> [1] https://doi.org/10.1017/S0025100320000365
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