[Lingtyp] Discourse functions of possessive markers

Fri Jul 19 13:12:52 UTC 2024

Dear Michael – Nicely spotted! With the caveat that I’m not an L1 speaker either: The writer here is not talking about an actual event, but an imagined one. I agree that this isn’t exactly generic, but it “could as well” be, in the sense that it’s implied that any sequence of 100 balloon pops would become tedious. IDK to what extent empathy is a factor conditioning the use of the addressee pronoun here. Keep in mind that the person to be empathized with here would be the cleaning personal, not the referent of the addressee pronoun, who is the generic reader. But perhaps the reader is invited to imagine themselves in the position of the cleaners? – Best – Juergen

Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)
Professor, Department of Linguistics
University at Buffalo

Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus
Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260
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Fax: (716) 645 3825
Email: jb77 at buffalo.edu<mailto:jb77 at buffalo.edu>
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Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID 585 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh)

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From: Michael Daniel <misha.daniel at gmail.com>
Date: Friday, July 19, 2024 at 02:01
To: Juergen Bohnemeyer <jb77 at buffalo.edu>
Cc: Randy J. LaPolla <randy.lapolla at gmail.com>, <LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Discourse functions of possessive markers

Dear all,

I cannot help sharing an example of use that just caught my eye on BBC web site. This is not a list usage, and it could even be replaced by the (could it not?). It is not your average generic use:

An avalanche of balloons is a great visual moment. But you have to feel for the cleaners. Right now I'm watching officials walk row-by-row on the arena floor with long sticks they are using to burst every balloon. It sounds fun, but maybe not after your 100th pop.

Apart from empathy effect (potentially, I leave it to native speakers), I would not say it is a regular generic use. Maybe it's just another indication that the labels we use in this domain are not discriminating enough, and that the granularity of terminology for referential status depends on research aims, as was suggested for e.g. universal inventories of semantic roles.

Michael

Le jeu. 18 juil. 2024, 15:10, Juergen Bohnemeyer via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>> a écrit :
I don’t think so, Randy. It seems to me that all mentioned uses of the English possessive addressee pronoun involve generic reference. Certainly, the list examples are generic. And I can’t think of a single example in which a determiner in a non-generic definite NP could be replaced by the possessive 2nd-person pronoun unless speaker actually intended to present the referent as possessed by the addressee.

I wonder what the etymology of this use is. My hypothesis is that it involves typicality and the speaker leaving it metaphorically to the addressee to fill in whatever the addressee assumes to be the prototype. Thereby apparently implying that the prototype is not controversial between the interlocutors. Which in turn further boosts its presumed typicality.

Best – Juergen

Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)
Professor, Department of Linguistics
University at Buffalo

Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus
Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260
Phone: (716) 645 0127
Fax: (716) 645 3825
Email: jb77 at buffalo.edu<mailto:jb77 at buffalo.edu>
Web: http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/

Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID 585 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh)

There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light Gets In
(Leonard Cohen)
--

From: Randy J. LaPolla <randy.lapolla at gmail.com<mailto:randy.lapolla at gmail.com>>
Date: Thursday, July 18, 2024 at 06:43
To: Juergen Bohnemeyer <jb77 at buffalo.edu<mailto:jb77 at buffalo.edu>>
Cc: Marianne Mithun <mithun at linguistics.ucsb.edu<mailto:mithun at linguistics.ucsb.edu>>, <LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Discourse functions of possessive markers
Thanks, Nigel, Andrew, Marianne, and Jürgen!

Jürgen, I think the generic sense of the examples you cite might come from the use of “average” with the phrase, but also might be partially due to the larger context.

Randy

On 18 Jul 2024, at 3:58 AM, Juergen Bohnemeyer <jb77 at buffalo.edu<mailto:jb77 at buffalo.edu>> wrote:

Dear all – You‘ll find plenty of examples in COCA etc. if you search for the phrase _your average_:

Your average polite American will look the waiter or waitress in the eye, smile, have…
Their problem was simply a poor location in the minds of your average theater-goer.
…CHopper would have packed a bigger punch and would have traveled much farther than your average motorcycle.

And on and on. But, this use seems to be restricted to a form of generic reference. I don’t think this is about definiteness per se or definiteness in any narrow sense.

Best – Juergen

Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)
Professor, Department of Linguistics
University at Buffalo

Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus
Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260
Phone: (716) 645 0127
Fax: (716) 645 3825
Email: jb77 at buffalo.edu<mailto:jb77 at buffalo.edu>
Web: http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/

Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID 585 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh)

There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light Gets In
(Leonard Cohen)
--

From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>> on behalf of Marianne Mithun via Lingtyp <LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>>
Date: Wednesday, July 17, 2024 at 15:26
To: Randy J. LaPolla <randy.lapolla at gmail.com<mailto:randy.lapolla at gmail.com>>
Cc: <LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Discourse functions of possessive markers
Dear Misha and Zahra,

Good observation. I was thinking of exactly the kinds of examples Randy mentions second:

What kinds of linguists are there? Well, you’ve got your formalists, your functionalists, your cognitivists, your typologists . . .

Pretty common, I'd say, at least in North America. (Not something I myself would say, of course!)

Marianne

On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 11:38 AM Randy J. LaPolla via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>> wrote:
Dear Michael,
Are you thinking of the listing use of “your”, as in the following made-up example? (I normally don’t like using made-up examples, but when I tried to search for a natural example the results were overwhelmed by the song “You’ve got your troubles and I‘ve got mine”.)

What kinds of linguists are there? Well, you’ve got your formalists, your functionalists, your cognitivists, your typologists . . .

Here “your” could be replaced by “the”, so it does seem to fit what Zahra is looking for.

I have certainly heard this sort of thing, but don’t know if it is restricted to a particular region, though to my ear it sounds better with a Brooklyn accent (as does everything else ;-) ).

Randy

On 18 Jul 2024, at 2:10 AM, Michael Daniel via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>> wrote:

Dear Zahra,

I think I heard a variety of American English where "your" was used in a very much discourse way, literally on one NP out of three or four. I cannot describe the function properly (probably, supporting contact with the interlocutor) and cannot place it regionally - maybe native speakers will help.

Michael Daniel

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Михаил Даниэль
Я осуждаю агрессию моей страны против Украины.
Michael Daniel
I condemn my country's aggression in Ukraine.

вт, 16 июл. 2024 г. в 14:53, Zahra Etebari Shekarsaraei via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>>:
Dear all,

I am preparing a dataset for development of discourse functions in possessive/personal markers cross-linguistically. I am particularly interested in constructions (relevant examples below) where a possessive/personal marker is used not to convey possession or refer to another item, but to denote functions such as definiteness, topicality, emphasis or contrast.

Definiteness
Kútip turǵan adamı kelmedi.                                           [Karakalpak]

The person he/she has been waiting for did not come.

(Utepovich 2023: 80)

Contrast
Ulizy-vylizy                kyk                   bratjos,           pokći-ez                                  [Udmurt]
             lived-were.3SG        two                         brothers         younger.brother-3SG
             kuaner,                      byȝym-ez                                uzyr.
             Poor                           older.brother-3SG                         rich
             There lived two brothers, the younger one was poor, the older one was rich.
             (Serebrennikov 1963: 133)

So far, I have collected cases from over 60 language varieties spanning Uralic (Ugric, Permic, Mari, Mordvin, Samoyed), Altaic (Turkic, Tungusic, Mongolic), Indo-European (Iranic), Afro-Asiatic (Semitic), and Austronesian (Javanese, Malay) families. If you have encountered similar uses in a language you work on or if you are aware of any lesser-known source on this topic, especially non-English sources, I would be extremely grateful if you could share them with me.

Many thanks for your time!

Best wishes,
Zahra

References:

Serebrennikov, Boris A. 1963. Istoriceskaja Morfologija Permskix Jazykov [Historical morphology of the Permic languages]. Moscow: Izdateľstvo AN SSSR.

Utepovich, Bekbergenov H. 2023. Semantic peculiarities of the possessive affixes in the Karakalpak language and their equivalents in English. Journal of Advanced Linguistic Studies. 10(2). 64-82.

Zahra Etebari
Postdoctoral researcher
Department of Linguistics and Philology
Uppsala University
Thunbergsvägen 3H<https://www.google.com/maps/search/Thunbergsv%C3%A4gen+3H?entry=gmail&source=g>, Box 635
75126 Uppsala, Sweden

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