[Lingtyp] Discourse functions of possessive markers
Pier Marco Bertinetto
piermarco.bertinetto at sns.it
Fri Jul 19 18:05:37 UTC 2024
I cannot help noticing that the discussion focuses on 'your'.
If I turn that sentence into Italian, I find that one might use 'our'
instead, even though the speaker does not intend to convey the idea that he
was personally involved in the action.
In the case of 'our' (*nostri*), I sense a kind of assumption of moral
responsibility (i.e.: although we are innocent in the case at stake, who
knows next time?)
With 'your' (*vostri*), there might be a nuance of generically addressed
reproach.
Pier Marco
Il giorno ven 19 lug 2024 alle ore 19:07 Marianne Mithun via Lingtyp <
lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> ha scritto:
> Dear Misha,
>
> Love your 'it's not your average generic use'!
>
> I think you've hit it with the empathetic note. Don't we feel a bit of a
> twinge when someone uses it with us in the generic sense but for something
> or someone we definitely do not feel empathy with? And the 'your 100th pop'
> definitely feels empathetic to me.
>
> Marianne
>
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2024 at 6:13 AM Juergen Bohnemeyer via Lingtyp <
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> wrote:
>
>> Dear Michael – Nicely spotted! With the caveat that I’m not an L1 speaker
>> either: The writer here is not talking about an actual event, but an
>> imagined one. I agree that this isn’t exactly generic, but it “could as
>> well” be, in the sense that it’s implied that any sequence of 100 balloon
>> pops would become tedious. IDK to what extent empathy is a factor
>> conditioning the use of the addressee pronoun here. Keep in mind that the
>> person to be empathized with here would be the cleaning personal, not the
>> referent of the addressee pronoun, who is the generic reader. But perhaps
>> the reader is invited to imagine themselves in the position of the
>> cleaners? – Best – Juergen
>>
>>
>>
>> Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)
>> Professor, Department of Linguistics
>> University at Buffalo
>>
>> Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus
>> Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260
>> Phone: (716) 645 0127
>> Fax: (716) 645 3825
>> Email: jb77 at buffalo.edu
>> Web: http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/
>>
>> Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID 585
>> 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh)
>>
>> There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light Gets In
>> (Leonard Cohen)
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Michael Daniel <misha.daniel at gmail.com>
>> *Date: *Friday, July 19, 2024 at 02:01
>> *To: *Juergen Bohnemeyer <jb77 at buffalo.edu>
>> *Cc: *Randy J. LaPolla <randy.lapolla at gmail.com>, <
>> LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> *Subject: *Re: [Lingtyp] Discourse functions of possessive markers
>>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> I cannot help sharing an example of use that just caught my eye on BBC
>> web site. This is not a list usage, and it could even be replaced by the
>> (could it not?). It is not your average generic use:
>>
>> *An avalanche of balloons is a great visual moment. But you have to feel
>> for the cleaners. Right now I'm watching officials walk row-by-row on the
>> arena floor with long sticks they are using to burst every balloon. It
>> sounds fun, but maybe not after your 100th pop.*
>>
>> Apart from empathy effect (potentially, I leave it to native speakers), I
>> would not say it is a regular generic use. Maybe it's just another
>> indication that the labels we use in this domain are not discriminating
>> enough, and that the granularity of terminology for referential status
>> depends on research aims, as was suggested for e.g. universal inventories
>> of semantic roles.
>>
>> Michael
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Le jeu. 18 juil. 2024, 15:10, Juergen Bohnemeyer via Lingtyp <
>> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> a écrit :
>>
>> I don’t think so, Randy. It seems to me that all mentioned uses of the
>> English possessive addressee pronoun involve generic reference. Certainly,
>> the list examples are generic. And I can’t think of a single example in
>> which a determiner in a non-generic definite NP could be replaced by the
>> possessive 2nd-person pronoun unless speaker actually intended to
>> present the referent as possessed by the addressee.
>>
>>
>>
>> I wonder what the etymology of this use is. My hypothesis is that it
>> involves typicality and the speaker leaving it metaphorically to the
>> addressee to fill in whatever the addressee assumes to be the prototype.
>> Thereby apparently implying that the prototype is not controversial between
>> the interlocutors. Which in turn further boosts its presumed typicality.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best – Juergen
>>
>>
>>
>> Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)
>> Professor, Department of Linguistics
>> University at Buffalo
>>
>> Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus
>> Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260
>> Phone: (716) 645 0127
>> Fax: (716) 645 3825
>> Email: jb77 at buffalo.edu
>> Web: http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/
>>
>> Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID 585
>> 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh)
>>
>> There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light Gets In
>> (Leonard Cohen)
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Randy J. LaPolla <randy.lapolla at gmail.com>
>> *Date: *Thursday, July 18, 2024 at 06:43
>> *To: *Juergen Bohnemeyer <jb77 at buffalo.edu>
>> *Cc: *Marianne Mithun <mithun at linguistics.ucsb.edu>, <
>> LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> *Subject: *Re: [Lingtyp] Discourse functions of possessive markers
>>
>> Thanks, Nigel, Andrew, Marianne, and Jürgen!
>>
>>
>>
>> Jürgen, I think the generic sense of the examples you cite might come
>> from the use of “average” with the phrase, but also might be partially due
>> to the larger context.
>>
>>
>>
>> Randy
>>
>>
>>
>> On 18 Jul 2024, at 3:58 AM, Juergen Bohnemeyer <jb77 at buffalo.edu> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear all – You‘ll find plenty of examples in COCA etc. if you search for
>> the phrase _*your average*_:
>>
>>
>>
>> *Your* *average* polite American will look the waiter or waitress in the
>> eye, smile, have…
>>
>> Their problem was simply a poor location in the minds of *your* *average*
>> theater-goer.
>>
>> …CHopper would have packed a bigger punch and would have traveled much
>> farther than *your* *average* motorcycle.
>>
>>
>>
>> And on and on. But, this use seems to be restricted to a form of generic
>> reference. I don’t think this is about definiteness per se or definiteness
>> in any narrow sense.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best – Juergen
>>
>>
>>
>> Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)
>> Professor, Department of Linguistics
>> University at Buffalo
>>
>> Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus
>> Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260
>> Phone: (716) 645 0127
>> Fax: (716) 645 3825
>> Email: jb77 at buffalo.edu
>> Web: http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/
>>
>> Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID 585
>> 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh)
>>
>> There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light Gets In
>> (Leonard Cohen)
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of
>> Marianne Mithun via Lingtyp <LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> *Date: *Wednesday, July 17, 2024 at 15:26
>> *To: *Randy J. LaPolla <randy.lapolla at gmail.com>
>> *Cc: *<LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> *Subject: *Re: [Lingtyp] Discourse functions of possessive markers
>>
>> Dear Misha and Zahra,
>>
>>
>>
>> Good observation. I was thinking of exactly the kinds of examples Randy
>> mentions second:
>>
>>
>>
>> What kinds of linguists are there? Well, you’ve got your formalists, your
>> functionalists, your cognitivists, your typologists . . .
>>
>>
>>
>> Pretty common, I'd say, at least in North America. (Not something I
>> myself would say, of course!)
>>
>>
>>
>> Marianne
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 11:38 AM Randy J. LaPolla via Lingtyp <
>> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Michael,
>>
>> Are you thinking of the listing use of “your”, as in the following
>> made-up example? (I normally don’t like using made-up examples, but when I
>> tried to search for a natural example the results were overwhelmed by the
>> song “You’ve got your troubles and I‘ve got mine”.)
>>
>>
>>
>> What kinds of linguists are there? Well, you’ve got your formalists, your
>> functionalists, your cognitivists, your typologists . . .
>>
>>
>>
>> Here “your” could be replaced by “the”, so it does seem to fit what Zahra
>> is looking for.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have certainly heard this sort of thing, but don’t know if it is
>> restricted to a particular region, though to my ear it sounds better with a
>> Brooklyn accent (as does everything else ;-) ).
>>
>>
>>
>> Randy
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 18 Jul 2024, at 2:10 AM, Michael Daniel via Lingtyp <
>> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Zahra,
>>
>>
>>
>> I think I heard a variety of American English where "your" was used in a
>> very much discourse way, literally on one NP out of three or four. I cannot
>> describe the function properly (probably, supporting contact with the
>> interlocutor) and cannot place it regionally - maybe native speakers will
>> help.
>>
>>
>>
>> Michael Daniel
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Михаил Даниэль
>>
>> *Я осуждаю агрессию моей страны против Украины.*
>>
>> Michael Daniel
>>
>> *I condemn my country's aggression in Ukraine.*
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> вт, 16 июл. 2024 г. в 14:53, Zahra Etebari Shekarsaraei via Lingtyp <
>> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>:
>>
>> Dear all,
>>
>>
>>
>> I am preparing a dataset for development of discourse functions in
>> possessive/personal markers cross-linguistically. I am particularly
>> interested in constructions (relevant examples below) where a
>> possessive/personal marker is used not to convey possession or refer to
>> another item, but to denote functions such as definiteness, topicality,
>> emphasis or contrast.
>>
>>
>>
>> *Definiteness*
>>
>> Kútip turǵan *adamı* kelmedi.
>> [Karakalpak]
>>
>> *The person* he/she has been waiting for did not come.
>>
>> (Utepovich 2023: 80)
>>
>>
>>
>> *Contrast*
>>
>> Ulizy-vylizy kyk bratjos,
>> *pokći-ez* [Udmurt]
>>
>> lived-were.3SG two
>> brothers * younger.brother-3SG*
>>
>> kuaner, *by**ȝ**ym-ez*
>> uzyr.
>>
>> Poor *older.brother-3SG*
>> rich
>>
>> There lived two brothers, the younger one was poor, the
>> older one was rich.
>>
>> (Serebrennikov 1963: 133)
>>
>>
>>
>> So far, I have collected cases from over 60 language varieties spanning
>> Uralic (Ugric, Permic, Mari, Mordvin, Samoyed), Altaic (Turkic, Tungusic,
>> Mongolic), Indo-European (Iranic), Afro-Asiatic (Semitic), and Austronesian
>> (Javanese, Malay) families. If you have encountered similar uses in a
>> language you work on or if you are aware of any lesser-known source on this
>> topic, especially non-English sources, I would be extremely grateful if you
>> could share them with me.
>>
>>
>>
>> Many thanks for your time!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Zahra
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> References:
>>
>>
>>
>> Serebrennikov, Boris A. 1963. *Istoriceskaja Morfologija Permskix
>> Jazykov* [Historical morphology of the Permic languages]. Moscow: Izdateľstvo
>> AN SSSR.
>>
>>
>>
>> Utepovich, Bekbergenov H. 2023. Semantic peculiarities of the possessive
>> affixes in the Karakalpak language and their equivalents in English. *Journal
>> of Advanced Linguistic Studies*. 10(2). 64-82.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Zahra Etebari
>>
>> Postdoctoral researcher
>>
>> Department of Linguistics and Philology
>>
>> Uppsala University
>>
>> Thunbergsvägen 3H
>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/Thunbergsv%C3%A4gen+3H?entry=gmail&source=g>,
>> Box 635
>>
>> 75126 Uppsala, Sweden
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> När du har kontakt med oss på Uppsala universitet med e-post så innebär
>> det att vi behandlar dina personuppgifter. För att läsa mer om hur vi gör
>> det kan du läsa här: http://www.uu.se/om-uu/dataskydd-personuppgifter/
>>
>> E-mailing Uppsala University means that we will process your personal
>> data. For more information on how this is performed, please read here:
>> http://www.uu.se/en/about-uu/data-protection-policy
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Lingtyp mailing list
>> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>> https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Lingtyp mailing list
>> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>> https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Lingtyp mailing list
>> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>> https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Lingtyp mailing list
>> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>> https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Lingtyp mailing list
>> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>> https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Lingtyp mailing list
> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>
--
=========================================================
|||| Pier Marco Bertinetto
------ professore emerito
/////// Scuola Normale Superiore
------- p.za dei Cavalieri 7
/////// I-56126 PISA
------- phone: +39 050 509111
///////
------- HOME
/////// via Matteotti 197
------- I-55049 Viareggio LU
/////// phone: +39 0584 652417
------- cell.: +39 368 3830251
===============================================================
editor of "Italian Journal of Linguistics"
webpage <https://www.ae-info.org/ae/Member/Bertinetto_Pier>
===============================================================
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/attachments/20240719/f91d48c7/attachment.htm>
More information about the Lingtyp
mailing list